Missing the point.

[Deano]

hi kenpodude,

total noob here myself, but I've been lurking for a while.

You're absolutely RIGHT that one style is no 'better' than another in the great scheme of things. Ducks are no better than slippers, arthur schopenhauer is no better than my knob. Of course it all depends on what you want to use that thing for.

It's illogical to assume anything is better than anything else based on a few setup competitions and/or drunken street fights, there are too many variables for anything even remotely scientific, objective, or intelligent.

It is a taken-for-granted on these boards that certain styles HAVE empirically proven their superiority within a limited arena (namely one-on-one, hand to hand fights), through countless no holds barred fights, vale tudo, challenges (such as the ones on the 'gracies in action' video) etc.


Of course, you're always going to be able to say "well if royce gracie had trained in ding dong doo then he still would have been a great fighter" and there may be some truth there, but still statistically some styles come out on top too often for it to be all coincidence.

If you don't agree with that, then from what I've seen of bullshido so far you're probably posting in the wrong place.

Hope I'm not being patronising, but I want to emphasise that I don't think anyone's saying BJJ or MT are 'the best'. I've recently successfully badgered my 55 year old mother into doing some tai-chi, which I'm really pleased about. For her, i would say, tai-chi is 'best'. If you live in a place where lots of people carry knives then perhaps some form of FMA is 'best' and BJJ alone might get you killed.

[Aesopian]

i see. try to challenge the popular point of view and get assaulted by braindead morons.


The only fact as i see it is that training don't make the man, the man makes the training. It's illogical to assume anything is better than anything else based on a few setup competitions and/or drunken street fights, there are too many variables for anything even remotely scientific, objective, or intelligent.

I'm done with this thread now.

kdhttp://tinypic.com/1yr7tv

[IzzyDaHedgehog]

KD, don't make me use the comparative T-test metaphor. It's been a while since I did statistics, and it would probably be over your head anyway.

Also, nice ending with the ad hominem attack and the "omg im dun w/ this thread k thx bye," that's the sign of a defeated tard.

EDIT: There was some thread about the future of Judo where I used that, if you want to know what I'm talking about.

[Greese]

Why does Chuck paint his toenails?

[Aesopian]

Why does Chuck paint his toenails?He does BJJ now, so the answer should be obvious.

[grond]

http://appliedkungfu.com/brice/my3.nsf/3c924e423754159386256efa006c6ed7/44291779759fc66486256efa006adbb1?OpenDocument

[jaychiu]

addendum:


Theoretical Situation #1:

A student trains wing chun by actively sparring resisting opponents of different styles many times a year.. He typically wins. Does wing chun still suck?

#2:
A student trains in MT by training solo, punching and kicking in air , sometimes. He typically loses sparring sessions because his school doesn't like to. Does MT still rule?


kd


Situation #1

Will what this student does still resemble Wing Chun?

Situation #2

Can you call it MT if all you do is solo training and kicking and punching in the air?

[FighterJones]

maybe it's me.... i'll definately get told so in any case.

It isn't the art that sucks.
It isn't the school that sucks.
It isnt the sensei that sucks.
If anything sucks, it's you. You are uncommited, uncoordinated, and untrainable. If you do not put forth the effort to learn, the effort to train, and the desire to become a true student, you will not succeed.

I'm tired of reading this BB and seeing 'wing chun/bujinko/TKD/etc sucks and BJJ and MT are 't3h d34d|y' ... ' your art is only as good as you train to be.

Here's my vote that a dedicated vingtsunner can whup a lazy BJJer.

I understand that i'm a newbie to this group, and am subject to severe criticism for this thread, but i stand by my sentiments.

:angry7:

kd

</rant>

And I'm tired of dumbass's that come on our forum and tell us this.
You know most of the admins and some of the mods do TMA's, right?
It is not the fact that BJJ and MT are the best, its the fact that they are two extremely popular arts that have been proven, and tried-tried again and prooven right in the end.

[Aesopian]

http://appliedkungfu.com/brice/my3.nsf/3c924e423754159386256efa006c6ed7/44291779759fc66486256efa006adbb1?OpenDocumentThank s, I needed a laugh.

[celticdragon03]

If someone trains hard in MA (any legitimate style) I think they should be praised, as should all martial artists. Style vs. style debates will get you no where as each side is too stubborn to admit anything, but since we are all martial artists we like fighting and thus like debating.


also a golden gloves champ from 1975 at 135 in chi town and its 35 taps a second which in my opion would own you kempo dude and the other kung-fu pansy here all at once.

the ma know as the river dance has now joined the high ranks of bjj, mt and judo.

So since I take "river dance" and MA does that make me t3h d34dly?


He does BJJ now, so the answer should be obvious.

Do you paint your toenails too?

[Shuma-Gorath]

i see. try to challenge the popular point of view and get assaulted by braindead morons.


The only fact as i see it is that training don't make the man, the man makes the training. It's illogical to assume anything is better than anything else based on a few setup competitions and/or drunken street fights, there are too many variables for anything even remotely scientific, objective, or intelligent.

You know what? FUCK YOU! I've tried to be nice to all you crackpots who do all this bullshit, but all you people understand is being hit over the head with trolling. You don't listen to reason or first-hand testimonials of people who left your garbage for better stuff. You don't listen to overwhelming empirical evidence. "Oh, what you said is true but of course my dojo is unique and special and we have the real essence of the art and we are the exeception and BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH" which is only posted just to convince yourselves you aren't wasting an absurd amount of time doing something far less efficient than the readily available alternatives. If any other field of science operated this way then we would have never emerged from the dark ages. To paraphrase another disgusted Bullshido poster, none of you will get it until a bjj white belt systematically beats every yip man trained WC guy in a no rules, no gloves match on a day when he ate a good breakfast. Also, the WC guy has to attack the bjj guy without warning because the advantage of WC is that it uses the element of surprise whereas BJJ is so predictable (of course, not predictable enough for you do defeat it in a controlled setting). You idiots have to understand that the fact you are even posting on this (or any) internet message board means you are not the exception to the rule. You may train hard, but your school sucks. Your school may be hardcore, but your art still sucks. There is no nice way of telling you to stop wasting everyone's goddamn time with your chi sau support groups.

Instead of posting Chuck using rubber guard, I'll tell you this: My school and fight team were formed by the top guys in Shotokan, WTF TKD, ITF TKD, and Judo. Those men, another fighter who's background I do not know and a member of the local ETF team all have their BJJ Black belts.

I am not closed-minded. It is you who choose to remain practicing bullshit because you have invested time and emotion in it and choose to ram your heads in the sand in the face of evidence you are wasting your time. If you ever show me something better than all of these arts we are "trolling" in favour of, I will take them in a heartbeat over what I am doing now and so will everyone I train with. However, it's not what any of you people are taking or you would be able to do more than apologize in the name of your arts.

In conclusion: Fuck ninjas and all of you pidgeon-toed goat riders.

[supercrap]

I liked your post. it was a breath of fresh air.

However I don't believe this:

If you ever show me something better than all of these arts we are "trolling" in favour of, I will take them in a heartbeat over what I am doing now and so will everyone I train with.
You now have an emotional attachment to BJJ and if something better came along you'd claim that you'd stick with BJJ because for you, it's the most effective and serves your needs.

Just like all the WCers.

[Shuma-Gorath]

You now have an emotional attachment to BJJ and if something better came along you'd claim that you'd stick with BJJ because for you, it's the most effective and serves your needs.

Just like all the WCers.

Counter-point: I took Judo for a brief period and ignored Jujitsu because I wanted to have all these throws and what not. Then I took the BJJ class at my school after registering for the Karate a few months prior. I was consistently destroyed by everyone so I pretty much forgot about Judo*. A month later someone from the kickboxing class came into the Shotokan class and was able to keep the pressure on me and control the match without a problem. I had a black belt from a McDojo and they had a yellow belt at my new school and lots of time in kickboxing. Solution: I take the kickboxing class now.

If something comes out that beats BJJ consistently I'll start learning it concurrently at the very least. The professionals who run my school were heavily involved in their former base styles and then took BJJ when it came along. Granted that was because they were all strikers and they saw the necessity of grappling, but my point stands: People should recognize that something will give them more efficient results and act accordingly, whether it means concurrent training or a total conversion.



*My Jujitsu professor is very involved in Judo and so are many of the professionals. My instructor also competed when he was younger. All of them can do some very good standing throws. However, I only have time for one and I make that choice based on efficiency.

[KenpoDude]

allright... you sucked me back in.

This discussion devolved into 'my art vs. your art'. I don't do wing chun, i was just using it as the most often put-down art. I wasn't trying to start a pissing contest, honest. I simply don't understand how you can objectively compare styles and say that one is 100% better than another. There's too many variables. I'm not saying any of you are dumb for making the statement either. I kinda hoped the philosophy of why one is better than another would get cleared up for me.

Shuma, does that mean if someone comes along and consistently beats people who train BJJ (which isn't likely) in UFC or the like, you'll instantly start training what ever style he uses? What if it was designed to only work against BJJ? What if WC dominates that style?

I've gotten a few good arguments during this thread. I certainly can't argue that MT'ers are wussies; but i can't argue that WC'ers arent.

kd

[Shuma-Gorath]

Shuma, does that mean if someone comes along and consistently beats people who train BJJ (which isn't likely) in UFC or the like, you'll instantly start training what ever style he uses? What if it was designed to only work against BJJ? What if WC dominates that style?

what if what if what if SHUT UP.

I'm sick of hearing hypothetical arguments in a field based on real results.

[KenpoDude]

and again... they aren't real results, just popular ones.