Missing the point.

[KenpoDude]

I AM SO FUCKING SICK OF HEARING THIS.

why? is it wrong? your post doesn't help much.

kd

[KenpoDude]

I know someone who has been fighting for a long time. He has trained in a lot of "hardcore" schools and styles with hard sparring and competed in competitions. He did hardcore kung fu as kid; he has done boxing, kickboxing, Shidokan, karate, wing chun and more. He holds black belts in judo and japanese jiu-jitsu. He has hand-to-hand training from the navy. He has done all sorts of self defense courses in his training as a corrections officer. He used to do go "dojo storming" and beat up instructors.

Can you guess what style truly impressed him out of all he has done, and which is the only one that keeps him training, since it's depth and scope is so great? What did the black belt study who he describes as "just playing with me" the first time they sparred? What is the only art that keeps his interest after all these years?

Yes, BJJ.


That's cool. I didn't mean to pit WC vs BJJ, i just picked two styles.

My point is that it's the student, not the technique.

I'm not standing up for WC or putting down BJJ. I'm going into my 2nd year of BJJ and still love it. It's just so vastly different than what i'd done before. ( i even 'folkstyle' wrestled for years, from age 5 to 18) .

Does that mean that wrestling sucks? no, i just like BJJ.

kd

[Xango]

I know someone who has been fighting for a long time. He has trained in a lot of "hardcore" schools and styles with hard sparring and competed in competitions.

What is the only art that keeps his interest after all these years?

Yes, BJJ.

Not to derail the thread but...you've heard of selection bias?

I know a guy with boxing experience, wrestling experience and Shidokan experience. What does he currently train? Liuhopafa. Why do I know this guy? Because I was taking Liuhopafa at the time. Why do you know the BJJ guy? Same reason.

By definition, all long-term students are satisfied customers.

[Aesopian]

It's not just the student. It is the student and the techniques. And the school and the training methods and the instructor and everything. But the point of my story was that this is a guy who loves to fight and train hard and will put in the time and effort to make anything work. He used to fight his brains out and spar hard in class. That's not all there is to it. It is about the techniques and the style and the teching methods. Just saying "you can only judge one fighter against another" is as closed-minded as any "style vs style" extremists.

[Aesopian]

Not to derail the thread but...you've heard of selection bias?

I know a guy with boxing experience, wrestling experience and Shidokan experience. What does he currently train? Liuhopafa. Why do I know this guy? Because I was taking Liuhopafa at the time. Why do you know the BJJ guy? Same reason.

By definition, all long-term students are satisfied customers.His reason for training BJJ is that it is the only place people can still kick his ass within an hours drive.

[KenpoDude]

Just saying "you can only judge one fighter against another" is as closed-minded as any "style vs style" extremists.

ok, i'll backpedal a bit and say i see a tiny portion of your point. If there were a school that only taught left handed haymakers that particular student would suck; and it would be pretty unpopular and it would die.

However, arts that have survived generations must have apparently met peoples expectations and served their purpose. Why are they so useless for our generation?

kd

[Aesopian]

Let me tell some more of this story, if the "selection bias" card is being pulled.

He trained for years at a judo school that offered several other arts as well, JJJ and karate included. He was actuall a black belt here. They did hard sparring against resisting partners and all the usual "Bullshido standards of training". The school even went so far as to have an internal ranking system, where you were ranked per your performance in sparring against other students. This actually put 3/4 of the school out with injury at any given time. So they definitely trained HARD, if nothing else.

He heard of some "Brazilian jiu-jitsu" place opening up, so he decided to go down and check it out. He said it was one of the most humiliating sparring sessions he'd ever experienced. He had 40 lbs. of muscle on this little Brazilian guy who spoke no English. It was hardly a fight. He was just played with, not even considered worth "owning" as we might put it. This Brazilian fellow didn't even break a sweat.

So he signed up for classes. And he trained in BJJ for about four months.

One night, he didn't feel like driving all the way down to BJJ, and instead returned to his HARDCORE judo school. He killed everyone, all other black belts include. The head instructor kept stopping him mid-sparring and saying "Do that move again..." and watching in astonishment at what he did. "Now teach that to this black belt." he was told. And so he did. "I want to see you after class." He was offered a paid job as an instructor, and he accepted.

The next day, he came in and saw the head instructor sitting at his desk with his feet up, holding a little pad he had writen "Brazilian jiu-jitsu" on it, like he was going to write down a little syllabus as it was taught. My friend didn't stay around much longer, and has been training BJJ ever since, and he still hasn't caught up to his instructor, as was the case elsewhere.

[KenpoDude]

I don't get it. I must be the one missing the point.

kd

[Tenguru]

I don't get it. I must be the one missing the point.

kd

Ditto. It still seems like selection bias to me.

[Aesopian]

How is it selection bias when he makes this choice while actually teaching and training at another school entirely?

[Lampa]

Aesopian seems to be describing a guy who was already quite good integrating bjj into his knowledge of MA and showing marked improvement because of it. I thought we were all agreed that BJJ is an awesome edition to existing skills. I still don't think it's a be all, end all. But nothing is and no one claims it to be.

This reminds me of a personal example of why not all styles are created equal. There's a guy I spar with at the university who is quite good at judo. 90% of my sparring time with him involves me being on the bottom of a man with a fourty pound weight advantage. He has very little trouble getting me down and pinning me if we get into a clinch.

His problem is, after he gets me down, the only way he can get me to tap is attempting a few chokes he knows from that position. This affords me way more time and room to take a better position than I should have. If he knew some BJJ he could pretty much destroy me.

So, in that case, hard work in one style is enough to make him pretty good, but cross training in a different style could make him a lot better. So, hard work is all good, but thinking all styles are created equal and you only have to work hard at the place you're at bars you from gaining a more well rounded, and potentially superior, system of study.

[KenpoDude]

right, but that doesn't meen judo sucks.

kd


p.s. does anyone see what i'm saying?

[Xango]

Aesopian, we're talking at cross purposes. Of course BJJ is the shit, esp. if you can learn it from Eduardo de Lima. The point is, you take BJJ so you BY DEFINITION only have access to stories of people who switched to it from something else.

I know one woman who studies Judo instead of BJJ because at the Carlson Gracie school (which is undeniably badass) she wasn't getting the kind of formal instruction she was looking for. I constantly hear from people at my dojo that they switched to Judo from TKD or Hapkido or whatever, and, when I was back at Choi's school, I knew several people who switched to his school from other form(s) of martial art, including stuff like boxing that generally has a higher reputation around here than the internal arts.

Selection bias is why I don't have personal stories I can recount of people switching to BJJ from Judo...and why you have none of people switching to something else from BJJ. That's all.

[Tenguru]

How is it selection bias when he makes this choice while actually teaching and training at another school entirely?

I don't know. I just enjoy reading your many evangelical BJJ posts. Preach on.
You know, when I was training Kenpo karate, there was a guy who quit BJJ/MT to train Kenpo because he thought it was more street effective. What's my point? Once again, I don't know. And now back to the Oscar's.

[Phrost]

What in the hell is this doing in T&T?

[Aesopian]

If I were still an admin, it'd be somewhere more appropriate.