Dahn Yoga & Tai Chi Centers

[miguksaram]

There is one in Naperville and one in Oakbrook. I like the Naperville one because there are more Koreans there and I'm easily amused by messing with them.

[Sri Hanuman]

The one I hit before, was on Lake Cook and McHenry. The one I plan to visit, is on Rand, and Hicks, in Palatine.

To make the best use of our time there, what kind of things do we look for? I am thinking:

Specifically in terms of Taiji:
1. standard inquiry into Taiji class
2. what style of Taiji
3. Lineage/ history
4. literary references to this info

In terms of sitting in and watching a class:
1. cost, if any?
2. if can't sit in, why?

Magic energy reading machine:
1. What is it?
2. How does it work?
3. Who designed it?
4. Any literature about it?

In terms of spotting anything else fishy:
...
Input? General ideas?


Also, from where I work, youtube is blocked, but try to find videos of Dahn Mu Do, their martial artless martial art. Looks to me like a combination of Chen, Wu, and some jump kicks.

[Sri Hanuman]

Here is that Dahn Mu Do clip.

YouTube - Dahn Mu Do demonstration at Earth Healing Festival

Thoughts, anyone?

[miguksaram]

The one I hit before, was on Lake Cook and McHenry. The one I plan to visit, is on Rand, and Hicks, in Palatine.

To make the best use of our time there, what kind of things do we look for? I am thinking:

Specifically in terms of Taiji:
1. standard inquiry into Taiji class
2. what style of Taiji
3. Lineage/ history
4. literary references to this info

In terms of sitting in and watching a class:
1. cost, if any?
2. if can't sit in, why?

Magic energy reading machine:
1. What is it?
2. How does it work?
3. Who designed it?
4. Any literature about it?

In terms of spotting anything else fishy:
...
Input? General ideas?


Also, from where I work, youtube is blocked, but try to find videos of Dahn Mu Do, their martial artless martial art. Looks to me like a combination of Chen, Wu, and some jump kicks.
Sounds good. This what I used before when I questioned them. I will go revisit again. I'll try in the next couple of weeks.

[Sri Hanuman]

Since Dahn has been throwing the term "yoga" around as their mainstay, I did a little research on the term.

http://www.abc-of-yoga.com/beginnersguide/whatisyoga.asp

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/yoga

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/forum.asp?articlekey=10811

Unfortunately as of yet, no specific legal definition of "Yoga" could be found.

The consensus of dictionary and health sites seems to be that "Yoga" is a health promoting practice of Hindu origin, involving breathing and posture (not unlike Qi Gong.) However, it can be said that the term is a technicality, and both Yoga and Qi Gong are essentially the same thing, since both have similar function.

With that being said, I dont know if promoting "Yoga" while teaching Qi Gong qualifies as misrepresentation. Any thoughts or opinions?

[sambosteve]

With that being said, I dont know if promoting "Yoga" while teaching Qi Gong qualifies as misrepresentation. Any thoughts or opinions?

It is not just the name yoga that is the issue. At the Dahn center near me, their flyers and brochures show classic health club like yoag pics...pretty women in health club clothing doing classic yoga postures. They don't show the dahn uniforms and slappy chi ging they teach. Total misrepresentation.

[Sri Hanuman]

At the Dahn center near me, their flyers and brochures show classic health club like yoag pics...pretty women in health club clothing doing classic yoga postures. They don't show the dahn uniforms and slappy chi ging they teach. Total misrepresentation.

Don't forget that a vast majority of their flyers and web sites show white middle aged women in gym clothes.

I'm planning to hit a place tonight, and ask some questions. I will report back soon. Anything on your end yet, Sambosteve?

Maybe your wife would like to share her experience?

[sambosteve]

Don't forget that a vast majority of their flyers and web sites show white middle aged women in gym clothes.

I'm planning to hit a place tonight, and ask some questions. I will report back soon. Anything on your end yet, Sambosteve?

Maybe your wife would like to share her experience?

Yeah, we looked for the old Dahn Manual but, think she threw it out. Still trying to find it.
I will ask her to write up an account of her few classes there before she quit. I told her about this thread. Funny thing is, she busted on me for not admitting that I got suckered by their marketing...and that I was the one who bought her the gift certificate...LOL. I did not follow my own advice and seriously check out the place. The sexy yoga marketing got me good...LOL. live and learn.

[Sri Hanuman]

I got suckered by their marketing...and that I was the one who bought her the gift certificate...LOL. I did not follow my own advice and seriously check out the place. The sexy yoga marketing got me good...LOL. live and learn.

Don't feel bad, I was dumb enough to cough up cash for Ilchi Lee's 2008 seminar in Arlington Heights. Anyone unfamiliar with actual yoga or gi gong practice would be sucked in easily. They can spew bullshit with the best of them. MAJOR freakshow, to say the least. He was smirking the whole time watching these gullible idiots stand up and shake like obese church ladies about to "testify", and pound themselves on the chest like fucking gorillas.

Back to the present. I just drove by a Dahn center that was advertising a Yoga and Taiji class. I asked a few preliminary questions, and will be going back there in about an hour. If I can't make it, I will come back and grill them tomorrow and post the report here.

Just to give you a taste of what I saw, the survey they have you fill out has check boxes asking what you want to a cheive. Self esteem/confidence, and enlightnement are listed as an option.

Pray that I don't shave my head, and devotedly pound my abdomen by tomorrow morning. Oh fuck... I already shaved my head... they almost have me.

[Sri Hanuman]

Please note, these are my personal experiences, and may or may not reflect all of the Dahn centers.

As promised, I have gone back to the Dahn center and did some more dirty underhanded spying of my own. Since they switch their masters around quite frequently, I was greeted by 2 new ones. This time around, I hit the jackpot, and was allowed to participate in the class. The following, is what took place.

I should point out, the last time I was at this location, I told the instructor I had over 2 prior years of Taiji experience. He whipped out a Dahn Mu Do brochure and never brought up the topic of Taiji again. This time around, I decided to play it dumb, and it paid off.

Friday, Dec. 5, 2008.

5:20pm.

I walk into a Dahn center located by my bank. There is a sign at the front, indicating a Yoga/Taiji open house. I indicate to the woman at the desk that I am interested in their Taiji classes, she sits me down at a round table by the window, and stands hovering over me.

I find this just a bit uncomfortable. I later see that there is a pattern. Every time I walked in, I am seated at the table, and asked to fill out a form, with the “master” looming directly over me, asking questions. This happened 3 times so far, and I will point it out the next time it happens. I am not sure if this is an intentional tactic for added psychological effect, but think it is worth mentioning.

I am asked about my Taiji experience, and tell them I have only studied it for 5 months, over 2 years ago, and remember very little. I am then asked to fill out a brief application about myself. I look it over. Some of the questions are pretty standard. Address, phone, health conditions… what kind of job I have… and then we get to the kicker. The part of the application that asks me what I want out of my training, lists CONFIDENCE/SELF ESTEEM, and ENLIGHTENMENT as an option. Serious red cult flag.

I am again asked if I am a beginner in Taiji, which I confirm. They tell me that their beginner Taiji classes come with Yoga. At this point I decide to go for the jugular, and ask them what kind of Taiji they teach. The answer I get is pretty vague… along the line of “Korean Taiji, like Korean martial art with Yoga exercise.” VAGUE.

I proceed to ask them what kind of martial art they teach. Apparently at this point the “master” decides that I’m either clinically brain dead, or otherwise “special,” and I’m talking the small yellow bus, safety helmet, and smiley lunch box “special.” Yet another vague answer in the form of: “special Korean Martial Art, you feel your body, not for competing.”

I am told since I am a beginner, they recommend the ENERGY EVALUATION CHECKUP, at the cost of $29. I ask her to elaborate. The answer I get is “Understand your body condition. Once we understand your body condition, we can guide you better.” Now I am thinking to myself, it will take more than that to guide me away from my $29, put some more feeling into this!!! I ask her if this involves a medical check up. The answer I get, is no, it’s a stretching and balancing exercise which will help them determine my inner condition. FUCKING RED FLAG, right there!!! Drink not their magic cool aid, gentle folk!!! Keep the fuck away!!! But wait, it only gets better.

I proceed to tell them I will be back for the trial class, but I am stopped half way to my sweet awaiting freedom. The “master” asks me how I want to pay for her special energy reading. I tell her I don’t know if I want it yet, I have to see the class first. Without pausing to see her reaction, I walk out.

Sadly, I do not make it to class that evening, which is probably for the best. When I come in the next morning, I get a one on one class which allows me to ask more direct questions without too much interruption.

Saturday, Dec 6, 2008.

10:00am.

I walk in and find the instructor. I am sat down with the “master” looming right in my face. I tell her I am here for the Taiji class. There is a class going on in the back, and I am asked to come back later.

Saturday, Dec 6, 2008.

10:30am.

I walk in and find the instructor. She has just finished a class, and everybody seems to be way in the back, pounding some kind of drums and chanting. The sound is muffled, so I can not be certain. I ask her about the Taiji class, and she begins looking for the survey I filled out the day before. I ask her about the history of their Taiji, my question seemingly unheard.

We go into a back room with a mat and a Chinese scroll on a wall. The instructor asks me where I am from, and about my accent (people tell me I sound British, which I vehemently deny. Pip pip, you bloody wankers!!!) She recaps the things I wanted out of Taiji, as indicated on the survey, and asks me what else I want out of Taiji. I tell her I want general health and balance, as I’m already getting enlightenment and self esteem for Christmas. Thanks, mom.

I ask her if they do push-hands, a pretty standard practice for any Taiji school. She gives me a blank stare. I elaborate “The balance exercise, where you press your hands against your opponent’s, to try to off-balance them?” She asks me if that’s like an energy ball. I give her a blank look. I try to explain again. She tells me that yes, they have it, but it’s for advanced classes only.

She then asks me if I am healthy. I tell her to the best of my knowledge, yes, I am. She asks me, if I am healthy, why do I want to practice more? I tell her I REALLY love Taiji, and want to learn more. Again, she tells me they do their Yoga before the Taiji practice, as a warm-up, because “you really feel the body.”
I ask about their lineage/history again. This time I actually get some kind of answer. She tells me “it’s from Korea, from 5000 years ago, the kind that Korean kings used to practice.” I pose the question again, “Your Taiji is 5000 years old?” The answer I get, is a straight YES.

FUCKING JACKPOT, your ass is mine!!!!!!

Disclaimer: Taiji was developed as a coherent system somewhere around the 1200 CE, kindly correct me if I am wrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tai_chi_chuan


I tell her that Taiji has not existed for 5000 years. How can her Korean Taiji be that old? Was it created at a later point? She said yes.

Ok, that’s 2 different things about the same topic in one conversation. Major oops.
She proceeds to tell me that their Taiji is modernized. I ask her to tell me a little bit of history behind this Taiji. I am told something along the lines of “One of the masters in this organization developed it for our training.” So, this is a more recently modified for of Taiji? The answer I get is a straight yes.
We begin the “yoga” which turns out to be nothing more than stretches, resembling NOTHING of what typically passes for yoga. I am not surprised, since my co-worker is a Dahn “healer” who’s classes I used to attend at the base where I work. Qi Gong is the more appropriate term. In fact, I can identify several movements from the Ba Dua Jing (8 piece brocade) and the Yijin Jing, both being Chinese Qi Gong. This, in itself is not unusual, since it’s not uncommon for Chinese and Korean Qi Gong to intermix. However, this being marketed as 5000 year old Korean art of the kings, makes me blow it all off as utter bullshit.

This is aimed at the ignorant, and the gullible, and in particular here in the U.S., that’s a large demographic. If only people had some fucking common sense, or at least did some god damn research of their own… we would have a lot less cults (Chung Moo Doe/ Oom Yung Doe / Moonies/ Sweating to the Korean Oldies.)

Now, by the time we got to their magic 5000 year old version of Taiji, I had no idea what it was supposed to be, and merely assumed it was part of their qi gong routine. The first part, sure enough was the Taiji opening posture, hands up, hands down. The rest, got me confused, hence I was under the impression it was their qi gong. It consisted of about 4 or 5 stances. They were what they call burning stances, that is, you stand in a position that tenses your lower/upper body.

One of the burning poses was STRAIGHT OUT OF FUCKING Xing-I. http://www.geocities.com/ycgf/images/arti_TBX_XY.gif
PM me if you want specifics on any of these. The other was a modified Bagua-zhang position, but I could be wrong. I am not trained in Bagua, but I do recall a friend of mine who is, doing a similar pose during his circle walking. The other two were simply too ridiculous to be taken seriously.

Now, throughout the practice, I was repeatedly told to exhale with my palms and heels. This is pretty esoteric practice, but for fucks sake, do you HAVE to try it on everyone that walks in??? It’s pretty damn annoying, especially if you are told to hold your breath.

At the end I was sore. I will say that this is genuine Qi Gong. That’s why all the bored housewives that attend class at Dahn get healthier. When the class was over, I was asked how I was feeling. After tensing my legs for so long and finally relaxing them, I felt pretty damn relaxed. I was still waiting for my Taiji demonstration without realizing that this was it.

The “master” asked me if I wanted to “continue with the class.” I assumed this was referring to my Taiji lesson, and eagerly agreed. She invited me to step out to the lobby and talk about the class. Outside, she began showing me the class schedules, and asked when I would like to sign up. With an annoyed look, I asked her when I was going to get my Taiji class. After all, I sat through all their Yoga-gong bullshit, and this was supposed to be my payoff.

You should have seen the look of disbelief on my face when she told me that I already saw it. In her own words, “…that was it. It was the energy part.” We did the “tiger holding ball” and a few other stances VAGUELY resembling anything Taiji (as mentioned above.) I must have had a dumb blank look on my face, because she asked me again when I would like to sign up. I told her I would think about it, and with an expression of further disbelief and annoyance got the fuck out as fast as my cult-free little legs could carry me.

On a final note:

I would like you to take a look at this. For your consideration, Dahn tried to claim tax exemption status as a religion, in AZ.
http://www.yoga.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=18723&start=211

Copy of legal document of the above, via Rick Ross' web site. Thanks Rick.
http://www.rickross.com/reference/dti/dti19.html

Aaaand,
http://www.selectsmart.com/DISCUSS/read.php?34,563250
http://newdahn.com/news/court/CA-lawsuit.pdf

Thank you, and good night.

[sambosteve]

Interesting that the center members and masters are all women. Same at the one here in NYC.

[Samuel Browning]

I wonder what happened with the lawsuits.

[Sri Hanuman]

I wonder what happened with the lawsuits.

I am sorry to say that Dahn has purchased a shitload of URL addresses. Every time you google Dahn, that's all you get. I think it's a strategy to overwhelm the negative web media, and quite frankly it's working. They can more than afford it.

All the dirt that used to be publically available, now requires quite a bit more digging. Thankfully Rick Ross is still out there, and forums with former Dahn members who have grievances are quite plentiful.

[Sri Hanuman]

Interesting that the center members and masters are all women. Same at the one here in NYC.

Hm... I'll check it out. Today I plan to visit another center.

[Sri Hanuman]

This is a clip I found on Dahn's Taiji.

The stuff I did with the instructor the other day is different, but a few movements were similar.

I present Taiji for gullible white people.
YouTube - Dahn Yoga members Tai-chi

For the sake of critique, I am assuming the guy in the center is the instructor/ "master."

1. Too stiff. The shoulders are way too tense, and are seen moving with the hand. A genuine Taiji master would not make that mistake.

2. At several points they stretch their arms out completely, which is warned against in the Taiji Classics.
*eidted* That is, stretched out to the point of tension. The hands were tense at several points.

3. Choppy movement. Even in Chen, the movements are fluid. Check out the transition between stances at 0:47 - 0:55.

This is me being nitpicky, but for a "modernized" Taiji, there is very little Taiji left to be had.

[Sri Hanuman]

Ok, swung by the other Dahn center, but it was closed. Since they are normally open around this time, I am assuming that particular one is closing. I will swing by later to verify.

In the meantime, I got my grubby little paws on some good history books. Time to get my reading, researching, and development on.