I need help from those who understand Japanese....

[liuzg150181]

For those who had been in Japan,and those who know Japanese language and Martial Art culture, and best still Japanese themselves,I need your help about this:
From another forum, I got info about this ninjutsu ryu known as "Kagega ryu",in Japanese it is known as "か げ か り ゅ",and kanji is "影賀流"~~~
Some questions:
1.)What is the governing body in Japan to regulate and uncover traditional bujutsu ryuha? I remember pre-WW2 Japan had it to propogate nationalism~~~
2.)How is Ninjutsu lineage like? Is there a specific ryuha to each and every prefecture in Japan?
3.)So ever heard of this school?
4.)Anyone in Japan,could you help me find out the existence of this ryuha?
Thanks for your opinion in advance. :bowdown:

[Junpei]

Ninjutsu is the art of espionage and spycraft and as such is not taught in any bujutsu ryuha today. It is NOT an art that is taught on its own, but rather as a sub-art to schools of bujutsu. In Japanese the art of ninjutsu is referred to as a fuzoku no bugei - an extra curricula study (for use during times of trouble). As such ninjutsu skills can be found in the densho of many hundreds of bujutsu schools especially those formed during the early half of the Tokugawa jidai.

There are many ryuha that once contained ninjutsu skills and methods, but these skills are no longer taught. In many densho these skills are listed below bajutsu and suijutsu in importance. So a school claiming to teach nothing but ninjutsu is laughable.

The legitimacy of ninjutsu schools is a hot topic especially outside of Japan (in Japan people who claim to practice ninjutsu are often laughed at hard - Hatsumi sensei included).

What we collectively call ninja now were referred to by different clans and even regions by different names; but no matter what the terminology - they were highly trained spies (often for hire). Also, anyone who carried out counter intelligence or spying (whether for another's gain or their own) was simply labelled a ninja. It was not necessary for someone to have actually trained in ninjutsu skills to be labelled a ninja. Ninja were NOT a CLASS - as were the samurai, merchant or farmers. Ninja were often samurai, farmers, or merchants who were just good at spying. Some were part of the vast Tokugawa spy networks formed after the fall of the Iga and Koga regions. Ninja came in all shapes and sizes, from low class farmer to high class samurai.

NO ninjutsu ryu are recognised in Japan today as being authentic - even remotely. (Togakure ryu included)

In regards to the ryu you asked about - 影賀流 - THERE IS NO SUCH THING IN ANY OF MY HISTORICAL RECORD BOOKS. If this is a legitimate school of koryu bujutsu the records of the school would NOT refer to the school using the MODERN pronunciation KAGEGA. An easy way to check on the legitimacy of this school is to 1) ask to view the densho showing the lineage of the ryu, and 2) ask that the followers tell you the CORRECT Edo jidai pronunciation of the schools name (which I can reveal to you in a private e-mail).

Junpei

[liuzg150181]

Thanks for your explaination,Junpei, and glad you are back~~~
Can you e-mail about the correct Edo jidai pronunciation?My e-mail is liuzg150181@yahoo.com.sg
Anyway this came from some argument in other forum:
http://www.sgwutan.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=1414

[liuzg150181]

Sorry,but Junpei may i know the titles(and authors) of the books you are referring to?

[Gezere]

Junpei glad to see you back.

Junpei is pretty spot on about this. And echos what I have been saying for awhile.
The Bugei Ryuha Daijiten is a good resource to look up schools. It a covers thousands of schools that have been researched. There are three volumes the last was released in '78, i think. Usually if some claims a school I haven't heard of, especially ninjutsu, this is the first place I look. Someone used to have alot of the info from this book online but I don't know if it is still up.

[liuzg150181]

Thanks,both of you~~~
Just a very dumb question,is there a possibility that certain bugei ryuha hasnt been discovered?
How was the research done,i mean they went to every single place or just dig out documents?

[liuzg150181]

One more question,when does the term,"ninja"&"ninjutsu" first started to appear?

[j416to]

If you're interesting in purchasing the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten, you can buy it here:

http://budogu.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/page16.html

i126 Bugei Ryuha Daijiten
$149.00
Bugei Ryuha Daijiten By Watatani Kiyoshi and Yamada Tadashi
The Bugei Ryuha Daijiten is the first book on the shelf of any serious student of the history of budo in Japan. Watatani and Yamada collected data on thousands of different ryuha from throughout Japanese history, and created this incredible resource. For each ryuha there is a list of weapons used by the ryuha, detailed tree charts showing the lineage and branching of the ryu, as well as connections to other ryuha it may have had. For ryuha where a great deal of data is available, there are also lengthy entries describing the ryuha and notable events and people concerned with it. The Bugei Ryuha Daijiten is an indispensable resource for anyone interested in the history of budo ryuha.
971 pages, hardcover, Japanese language.

I highly recommend this place. Over the years, much to my wife's dismay, I've purchased over 50 Japanese language martial arts books from Peter, the owner of this website.

Good luck

[Jass]

One more question,when does the term,"ninja"&"ninjutsu" first started to appear?

You're looking around the 18th Centurary if I recall correctly, its around the Tokogawa/Edo period in Japan's fuedal history that a "romanticiation" of the yamabushi began, some even claim Hatsumi invented the "traditional" ninja costume often seen in cheesy Gung Fu movies around the 70's

Originally the Ninja would have been called the Yama Bushi or forest warriors, its improbable to think really that they were some highly specialised cult of expert fighters and epsionage specialists, a much more reasonably history to the ninja would be that they were simply refugee's fleeing from China prior to or during one of its civil wars who took up residence in some of Japans forestal and mountain area's, refusing to pay taxes the local Daimyo/Shogun sent soldiers in an attempt to uproot or simply surrender them into paying taxes, either way there was alot of violence ending with dead ninja :laughing6

As for "ninjutsu" itself I have no idea, not even the vaguest recolection of theories and boring lectures, especially since I've never heard it directly called Ninjutsu outside of cartoons and movies as a child and the occasional teenager.

[j416to]

The only legitimate ryuha that has any Ninjutsu in its curriculum, and that I have any experience with, is Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto. But all I've seen is the throwing of shuriken.

[Jass]

The only legitimate ryuha that has any Ninjutsu in its curriculum, and that I have any experience with, is Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto. But all I've seen is the throwing of shuriken.

Again that I would say is rather questionable. Although I'm no expert on the subject I've been told numerous times that Shuriken are more of a gimmic thing and definatly wouldn't be available to fuedal Japans ninja considering the lack of food and shelter etc, to say they could afford to create these metal objects perfectly weighted for throwing quickly is actually quite laughable.

Its nice to believe in the black clad assasin that steals through the night, recovering secret information for the good of "the clan" or commiting assasinations upon a wealthy clients behest its just not...logical. Prior to any indepth analsys you should always try and break things down logisticly:

These Ninja were refugee's from fuedal China, which was then rife with civil war.
They would have next to nothing, very few would have been able to make it to Taiwan, Japan etc as it is
They would have been shunned by the local villagers, who incidently, would have been under the ward of the local Shogun, therefore if the Ninja tried to steal from them they would only bring the process of their annihilation one hell of alot more quickly.

And even IF, despite the immending weight of common sense and historical findings against the tiny...slim...unpheasable possibility of the Ninja's legitimacy that they Ninja in all their romanticised glory: living in forests, forming complex clans etc, what makes you think their fighting system would be as good or better (styllisticly speaking, impartial of training methods) then other more secure styles?

[Spunky]

My understanding is that the "ninjutsu" ryu under Hatsumi are so closely related to the more recognized Gyokko and Koto ryu (both geneologically and technically), it's likely they were actually unformalized parts or subsets of these traditions, as is the case with so many ryuha. Look at Gyokushin ryu, which the way it's written (I'm told) can mean "the heart of Gyokko."

The Kukishinden ryu also included training falling into this category (disguise/impersonation, weather divination, guerilla tactics, etc) but I don't know how much if any is supposedly retained today. I'm assuming its much in the same state as KSR.

If that were the case, the points of dispute here would be the ethics of now proposing them as independent ryuha, and how accurate they really are anyway. Supposedly Takamatsu employed the methods on numerous occasions during his adventures in China and Korea, but there is certainly no way to verify those travels on the internet anyway.

I've experienced enough that I'm not in complete disbelief that it has remained intact somewhat at least... but there is really little emphasis on the "ninja" thing in training today, most of it is basically classical jujutsu and weapons training to begin with.

[Spunky]

Again that I would say is rather questionable. Although I'm no expert on the subject I've been told numerous times that Shuriken are more of a gimmic thing and definatly wouldn't be available to fuedal Japans ninja considering the lack of food and shelter etc, to say they could afford to create these metal objects perfectly weighted for throwing quickly is actually quite laughable.

Throwing blades are a part of many ryuha, because its pretty useful. They range from the flat multi-point variety to huge armor-piercing throwing spikes. And since the so-called ninjutsu was often part of samurai ryuha, both samurai and those acting as "ninja" would have them.

You still seem to consider the ninja as being some kind of seperate class, which was not the case. I'm pretty sure the oft-referenced Iga and Koga regions were controlled by yamabushi, militant buddhist clergy, and allied samurai, who refined their "ninjutsu" skills. The warrior-monks controlled a considerable amount of wealth and power, though this was probably largely supericial as I recall hearing that they usually lost any head-on military confrontation (though being vastly outnumbered was also usually a factor).

I'm sorry I don't have any sources on this stuff, its off the top of my head so forgive any gross errors.

[Junpei]

"Originally the Ninja would have been called the Yama Bushi or forest warriors,"

Yamabushi were practitioners of Shugendo. Yamabushi translates as "one who lies down in the mountains." Today those who practice Shugendo are called Shugenja. Often ninja would use the disguise of a Yamabushi to go about thier spying, but please don't believe the rubbish you read about Yamabushi being directly connected to ninjutsu. There is no evidence of such a connection.

"The only legitimate ryuha that has any Ninjutsu in its curriculum, and that I have any experience with, is Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto. But all I've seen is the throwing of shuriken."

Why is it that all foriegners think that the throwing of shuriken is automatically associated with ninja. Shurikenjutsu was a part of many hundreds of bujutsu ryu. Shurikenjutsu was practiced by anyone who wanted an advantage over an opponent. As for a legitimate ryu that contains shurikenjutsu Katori Shinto ryu is only one among hundreds.

"Iga and Koga regions were controlled by yamabushi, militant buddhist clergy, and allied samurai, who refined their "ninjutsu" skills. The warrior-monks controlled a considerable amount of wealth and power, though this was probably largely supericial as I recall hearing that they usually lost any head-on military confrontation (though being vastly outnumbered was also usually a factor)."

The earliest written reference that associates ninja with Iga and Koga comes from the Nochi Kagami (Muromachi jidai). It says: "concerning shinobi no mono (ninja) they are said to be from Iga and Koga and went freely into enemy castles secretly. They saw hidden things and were considered allies. Strategists call them kagimono hiki."

The Yamabushi seem to pop up a bit here, so let me explain again - Yamabushi and ninja have no actual connection apart from ninja occasionaly using the disguise of a Yamabushi. Yamabushi were free to roam through the mountain sides. The Yamabushi and ninja have little in common other than their inherent mystery. Yamabushi controlling a region? You are confusing Yamabushi with Sohei.

"Iga and Koga regions were controlled.......... and allied samurai, who refined their "ninjutsu" skills."

Yes, the inhabitants of the Iga and Koga regions developed a certain expertise in ninjutsu skills. They became quite famous for the ability to enter castles and to sneak in and out of private residences. In all the records that I have read concerning the use of ninja from Iga and Koga the words "employed" 'hired" "recruited" are used. The ninja of Iga and Koga were therefore mercenaries for hire.

[liuzg150181]

Wow,so many info overnight,sincerely thanks everyone for your help~~~ :icescream
It broadens my knowledge and cleared some misconception about ninja,though i dont think i would be buying the book~~~ :occasion1

[j416to]

All I can offer this discussion is the following:

1) Anecdotal, and thus albeit worthless, reference to ninjutsu and shuriken:

I have two friends who have studied Katori Shinto Ryu in Japan. One who studied with Otake Sensei, and who says that the senoir students practiced throwing shuriken, but never called it ninjutsu. And the other friend who studied with Sugino Sensei, and who says that the senior students threw shuriken and did called it ninjutsu.



2) Documented reference to ninjutsu and shuriken:

a) Classical Bujutsu - The Martial Arts and Ways of Japan- Volume One - Donn F. Draeger
(Donn Draeger who co-authored the book The Deity and the Sword with Otake Sensei)

" Not all ryu found it necessary to formalize a ninjutsu tradition of their own. On the basis of historial evidence, the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu was the first to do so"

- page 85, Third Printing, 1997, Weatherhill, Inc.

B) The Way of the Warrior - The Paradox of the Martial Arts- Howard Reid and Micheal Croucher

"The teaching of the Katori Shinto Ryu included ninjutsu, the arts of the ninja (spies and asssins of Japan's feudal era) or the espionage arts. In these photographs a senior member of the Ryu demonstrated the throwing of shuriken or iron bolts. This part of the school's teaching is secret, but Otake Sensei agreed to show us the basic throws."

- page 130, paperback edition, 1995, Overlook Press.


3) And finally, I'm not sure why my being a "foriegner" has any relevance to this discussion, but since, apparently it does, all I can offer is the fact that my Grand Parents were born in Japan, my parents still speak Japanese at home, we still own a small family farm above Lake Biwa, in Japan. And if you're willing to visit with some freshly cut flowers, which would no doubt make my parents very happy, I can give you directions to my family's burial shrine, in the city of Hikone.