Savate, JKD, Muay Thai

[Omar]

er. . . um . . . isn't JKD supposed to be beyond that sort of classification? I'm not really all that clear on the whole concepts vs. origianl school but if it's concepts JKD doesn't that mean that the specific techiniques would just depend on the other experience of your instructor?

I suppose you never do side kicks? round kicks? Does a TKD kick make a big 'Hi I am a TKD kick' flash in the air when you do it? Does it have cooties so you need to label any old round kick as "not TKD"?

[jeff_lindqvist]

Mystsa wrote:

So savate kicks are faster than Muay thai kicks? But arent muay thai kicks more powerful?

It depends, power comes from speed and ehmm... force? So, a very fast kick can really do the works. Imagine a whiplash, relying more on speed than the force put behind.

[Dochter]

mysta,
none of those either. I doubt most people looking for a new martial arts school would even know who bruce lee was.

Omar,
Of course they have cooties, and there is of course no similarity between tkd kicks and the kicks of any other style, that's why they suck.

*You're all a-holes*

[jeff_lindqvist]

Osiris, thanks for the correction on the physics formula.

[Dochter]

The other problem with snapping kicks (according to my instructor) is that when you snap you also have the tendency to snap back which will lessen the power of the technique for the reasons osiris mentioned. Continue through the target to maximum penetration and then retract.

*You're all a-holes*

[JKDChick]

Omar, you rock. That was beautiful.

I meant (which I should have, you know, said) was the kicking style I have been/am being taught in JKD is very different mechanically than what I was taught in TKD.

No instep kicks in JKD. Low side kicks. Shin kicks with toe point and foot edge. I've never seen an axe kick (pretty, but useless) or any jumping, spinning kick. Savate mechanics are subtly different but my past TKD experience makes it seem like a blazing fire of change.

"I'm not tense; just terribly, terribly alert."

[Dochter]

Seems relevant regarding TKD and other kick to quote (well paraphrase) my instructor: "the only reason to have a solid head height kick when fully stretched is so you have a devestating knee height kick all the time".

Applies of course to being able to do any low kick. If you can kick quite well high, you can kick very well low.

Of course he has kicked me in the head a number of times so I don't think he 100% subscribes to this.

*You're all a-holes*

[Gezere]

>Savate, as well as another “French style” Shosson (wrong spelling, sorry), was delivered to France by sailors from Siam Kingdom. Which is called Thailand now. Techniques have changed, as sailors hadn’t a lot of time to practice mauy-thai. Still, origin is the same. So what the difference, by the way?

This is one THEORIZED orgin of Savate. Reason I say theorized is becuase it holds grains of truth but not totally correct. Reason being and that CHAUSON (better spelling) has it roots in Basque footfighting that had nothing to do with sailors. It is more likely that sailors picked up more tricks here and there but saying Savate evolved purely from MT would be very inaccurate, espeacially when looking at the methods of kicking.


(Still wondering if IGBJJ will EVER give a reasonable explaination but I think it is too much to hope for.)

Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invinsible Asia) Emporer of Baji!!! THE FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE AGAINST THE UNITED AUSSIE FRONT!!

[Sei I]

All styles, to one degree, or another look to keep what is relevant and discard what isn’t, as you see this leads to some homogenization.


...and vice versa: some of them ADD techniques to make it distinguished form others. Like TKD in the beginning. Or other new and some mixed arts do now.

[Sei I]

Back to “TKD in JKD”… ;) I should say that some time has passed after Bruce Lee has passed away… One instructor might use kicks more likely to TKD, another to Muay Thai. And that’s fine as long as it works and principles are followed. Principles of JKD JKDChick knows better, I assume…

What to technique itself, TKD’s sidekick would look very similar to karate’s or kung-fu or muay-thai or whatsoever, as long as it works! Really, there is nothing like “TKD kick” at all except instructors start explanation from different point of view and then ends at the same edge: “you start from such point, it goes such way, it hits such point and it should have such impact”. That’s it! Other stuff is a total bullshit to wipe your brains and keep paying him further.

People sometimes think in a very simplified way: “high-jump-spinning-kick – it is TKD”. “Low kick to shin – it is JKD”, and “low roundhouse kick – must be muay-thai or kyokushinkai karate” (first in shorts, another in Japanese pajama). Like groundfight is for BJJ only… C’mon!… Let’s step out from the box.

Rhee lies, probably, and I don’t doubt about it. But Norris changed Bruce’s point of view to high kicks… and I don’t doubt here as nobody can present evidences that Bruce WAS kicking high before he met Norris and trained with him (moreover, Bruce kept on repeating even after, that “there are no high kicks in JKD”; as it has no value in street, hasn’t it?).

If I would say that Inosanto is actually Bruce’s teacher, not his student, you wouldn’t believe me and even would try to beat me up!… ;) But… WHERE do you see wing chun in Bruce Lee techniques? Kicks? Nope, they started with kicking from tang soo do and now it is shifted to muay-thay (or call it savate, same origin, as I have stated above). Punches and strikes? Nope: boxing, kali and escrima.

You know why kung-fu guys have been mad on Bruce (or legends about JKD lies as well)? Not because he revealed any secrets or started to teach non-Chinese. People watched his moves and started coming to kung-fu sifus asking about “kung-fu like Bruce Lee’s!”. But they were not able to teach such “kung-fu” as there is no kung-fu in Bruce Lee’s JKD… Some background did exist but he got rid of it after that fight that he was not able to keep on wing chun and win. I guess he has studied wing chun too little of time to make these techniques worth… Although there is nothing to study in wing chun – one set of movements taken from Shaolin’s tanglan-quan and adapted to Chinese foot-soldiers with staff or pike?… ;)

[JKDChick]

The origin of JKD started when Bruce was physically challenged by another instructor (an Asian) because he (Bruce) was teaching whites. I'm not kidding. Bruce won the fight but was dis-satisfied with how long it took to win. That started him thinking about the ideas that began JKD.

The straight blast is Wing Chun chain punching made "real". Direct translation.

"I'm not tense; just terribly, terribly alert."

[Freddy]

Sei I -In JKD wing chun techniques are used. Many kung fu techniques are also found in JKD but its not the sole techniques. I suggest you actually study some JKD or do more research. Some of the info you said are grossly misinformed.
Dan Inosantos did also teach Bruce lee techniques; pretty much to say that Bruce learn from anyone and everyone.
You also find alot of wing chun in JKD's trapping range and speed and sensitivity drills and wooden dummy technique training.
Bruce Lee learn high kicks from some of the Northern Chinese systems he studied and from a whole whack of other teachers and systems like savate to name a few.
What system of JKD are you learning from????

PEACE!

[JKDChick]

The lineage I'm in is three people removed from Bruce: My instructor learned from Paul Vunak who learned from Dan Inosanto who was Bruce's partner in developing the art.

"I'm not tense; just terribly, terribly alert."

[Omar]

acutally it's one half the mass times the velocity squared (.5)m(v)(v) although I think it's not as relevant as most people make it out to be unless you actually detatch your leg and then hurl it at the attacker. :)

JKD - Don't laugh. Cooties are a serious disease and unless you had them when you were a child you may still be vulnerable.

[Sei I]

The origin of JKD started when Bruce was physically challenged by another instructor (an Asian) because he (Bruce) was teaching whites. I'm not kidding. Bruce won the fight but was dis-satisfied with how long it took to win. That started him thinking about the ideas that began JKD.


I know you are not, JKDChick. I know that story but I would rather think that this guy, that challenged him, wanted to make himself a kind of famous and earn the name in Chinese community. As he was new in States and Bruce was like a pain in the ass for the Chinese kung-fu community ignoring whites (as the latter did the same on Chinese).

But I doubt if he won really. First of all, that guy came after his shift in the kitchen, and, second, after the fight, that he was mostly passive and defending while Bruce did it in an aggressive way using bil jee – finger thrusts to the eyes, the guy still was able to work next day. Well, if this is considered a victory, let it be. Some rules downgrades for passive and defending way of tournament. So Bruce did win.

On the other hand, this “victory” made him very upset and unhappy. I think he felt that this is not a true victory and the winning should be fast, effective and obvious to everyone. That drew him from polite and ritual kung-fu to street-fight-like JKD. My respect on his good judgment!

[Sei I]

Sei I -In JKD wing chun techniques are used. Many kung fu techniques are also found in JKD but its not the sole techniques. I suggest you actually study some JKD or do more research. Some of the info you said are grossly misinformed.
Dan Inosantos did also teach Bruce lee techniques; pretty much to say that Bruce learn from anyone and everyone.
You also find alot of wing chun in JKD's trapping range and speed and sensitivity drills and wooden dummy technique training.
Bruce Lee learn high kicks from some of the Northern Chinese systems he studied and from a whole whack of other teachers and systems like savate to name a few.
What system of JKD are you learning from????

PEACE!


To Freddy:

Of course he used some wingchun! How else he could do! He has started with it, this influenced on all his concepts as well! :)

He was adaptive and he has learned from any source he got in touch with. And he taught everybody who wanted to be taught. Very good attitude, by the way. I use the same.

What to Northern kung-fu kicking - I doubt. Name a teacher if so. Yes, some techniques present as they may present in other styles as well or look similar (like stretching exercise he’s doing in Enter the Dragon; similar is in kyokushinkai: soto-mawashi-geri and uchi-mawashi-geri). But the way Bruce kicked was more Korean/Japanese that Chinese – I see his knee too tensed (he bends it to maximum then straights the leg, Chinese do it not fully bended though now everything gets mixed: see Jet Li in Fist of Legend).

Sensitivity drills are in some karate styles as well. You are talking about chisao, perhaps? Similar stuff presents in Uechi-ryu. As this school still preserves his Chinese origin, not like Japanese karate (vs. most Okinawian).

Don’t be offended but most funny question is “what JKD you are learning from?”. That really made me laugh… ;) You answer! And this answer will make me laugh again!… Because your answer will spoil and mix up everything Bruce said or meant in his ideas. THAT will be gross misinformation…

I think we may discuss my “misinformation” in separate topic, don’t we? There you may present where I am not true and prove it. If you are right, I will admit. I always urge to learn and research something new. And change my mind where I am not right…

Peace on you too brother!..