Savate, JKD, Muay Thai

[Gezere]

You're pretty close in assesment. The counterweight of the torso is a key part why the sidekick can develop more power.

But I wonder if IGBJJ can give the correct mechanics of both kicks and see why one has the potential for more power than the other.

Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invinsible Asia) Emporer of Baji!!! THE FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE AGAINST THE UNITED AUSSIE FRONT!!

[Sheol]

sillitoechris:


Punching the toe?

Who said that. the reason that people kick high is to utilise the added reach of the legs. To sya it is like punching a foot is stupid. you wouldnt bend down to enter someones striking space to make a strike.

To me, it doesn't make sense to strike targets in a manner that engenders more risk than required. For instance, you can punch a foot, but you are presenting your head as a leading target. In the case of kicking a head, you are putting your balance at severe risk and definitely hampering your mobility.


On the subject of kicking. We had an eight dan TKD master at a recent grading whos tip to everyone- but especially the lower grades was that you shouldnt just go for big kicks to high sections but use your fists to confuse the opponent and create blind spots and THEN come in with a kick. I dont think anyone with training could that suprised by a high kick if it wasnt hidden amongst other movements.


Let me ask this question: Does his organization participate in Olympic-style competition or point-sparring?

Using punches as a 'diversion' is ridiculous and this 'trained' fighter rubbish has got to go! Two COMPETITORS might give each other space and are probably defensive enough to be BLUFFED by feints and decoys, but outside of sport venues, such tactics are foolish. An 'untrained' fighter looking to hurt you isn't going to be "confused" by your punches. He's going to drive through your 'screen', compromising your 'kicking space' and hurt you without regard to any 'nicety' of space control. Too much "if"!



Edited by - Sheol on December 02 2002 14:28:05

[Sheol]

Asia,


You're pretty close in assesment. The counterweight of the torso is a key part why the sidekick can develop more power.


Ah, but do you know why the chasse has the best of both worlds? :D

[sillitoechris]

No, not using hands as decoys. using hand techniques- punches and backhands- actually hitting the opponent and then including a kick in this combination- it maens that a relatively slower technique can be used and the opponent wouldnt see it coming as they would it did tried it straight from go- they should be too busy trying not to get punched in the face. Have you never haerd of creating blindspots in combinations.
My club do point sparring but keep it seperate from self defense aspects. We do full rounds- no stopping and who has the most points at the end wins.

Doesnt every powerful technique involve some kind of risk. throwing a hard punch would leave you more open than a jab for example. If a kick is used correctly then it is very useful.

[JKDChick]

You've never had a straight blast in your face, I take it?

Using punches as a 'diversion' is ridiculous and this 'trained' fighter rubbish has got to go! Two COMPETITORS might give each other space and are probably defensive enough to be BLUFFED by feints and decoys, but outside of sport venues, such tactics are foolish. An 'untrained' fighter looking to hurt you isn't going to be "confused" by your punches.

There's a lot of truth in that but there are things you cn do that will throw even experienced people. The aformentioned straight blast, for instance. I'm not a rank amateur and the first time my instructor did this to me in a fight I suddenly found myself back to the wall, across the gym with my hands over my face, yelping in surprise.

The tactic of using punches to "set up" slower kicks is bang on, though. We also use the "high/low/high/low" strategy from Praying Mantis KF to set up both injuring kicks and knock-out punches.

"I'm not tense; just terribly, terribly alert."

Edited by - JKDChick on December 02 2002 15:44:57

[Sheol]

sillitoechris:


No, not using hands as decoys. using hand techniques- punches and backhands- actually hitting the opponent and then including a kick in this combination- it maens that a relatively slower technique can be used and the opponent wouldnt see it coming as they would it did tried it straight from go- they should be too busy trying not to get punched in the face. Have you never haerd of creating blindspots in combinations.


I don't count on "if"s. Do you understand why you SHOULD use a 'combination' in the first place? Apparently not, because you suggest that you'll use punches and THEN a kick to the head, hoping that your opponent never sees it coming. What you fail to realize is that by making punches, you are either encouraging your opponent to close OR encouraging him to PULL BACK. Either way, that means that your kick has a GREATER chance of MISSING because your target isn't where you want it to be! If you actually land a telling punch (sure...), it's practically guaranteed that his head WON'T be where you want it.


My club do point sparring but keep it seperate from self defense aspects. We do full rounds- no stopping and who has the most points at the end wins.


It seems pretty evident that your club had better stick to point sparring. Saying that you keep "sport" separate from "self-defense" is self-deluding.


Doesnt every powerful technique involve some kind of risk. throwing a hard punch would leave you more open than a jab for example. If a kick is used correctly then it is very useful.


There's a significant difference between measured risk and gambling. There's a significant difference between proper striking and improper striking. There's a significant difference between using the right tool and using the wrong tool. There's a significant difference between utilizing proper strategy and tactics and utilizing improper strategy and tactics. Get the picture?

[ksmythe]

Speaking of JKD, has anyone here ever been to a Dan Inosanto Seminar? He is giving one here in two weeks and was thinking of going.



"Gentlemen! No fighting in here! This is the War Room."

[JKDChick]

ksmythe -- GO!

Dan's amazing, and who knows how much time we have left with him. Go.



"I'm not tense; just terribly, terribly alert."

[JKDChick]

On a seperate note, we use a "chambered" position to destroy low-line kicks but it's very transitional with us. You can't stay planted on one foot very long; too dangerous.

"I'm not tense; just terribly, terribly alert."

[Sheol]

JKDChick:

You should know better.


You've never had a straight blast in your face, I take it?
...
There's a lot of truth in that but there are things you cn do that will throw even experienced people. The aformentioned straight blast, for instance. I'm not a rank amateur and the first time my instructor did this to me in a fight I suddenly found myself back to the wall, across the gym with my hands over my face, yelping in surprise.


Did he hit before you moved your hands or afterwards? In fact, did he hit at all? It has nothing to do with being "experienced" or a "rank amateur". It comes back to mindset, strategy, and training methodology. You were being defensive, reactive, and timid. A straight blast is a linear flurry of strikes that move on a single plane. It is no more sophisticated than its component strikes. Even so, you were timid because you feared. You reacted to his movement by throwing up your hands. You were totally defensive by covering and retreating.


The tactic of using punches to "set up" slower kicks is bang on, though. We also use the "high/low/high/low" strategy from Praying Mantis KF to set up both injuring kicks and knock-out punches.


But that isn't what he was saying. Read his posts again. He was talking about attacking 'high, high'. There was no setup.

[JKDChick]

Actually, he surprised me.
(laugh)
Might have been because I was timid. Might also have been because it's a very effective technique. Yes, he hit me in the face, lightly enough to to hurt, hard enough to drive me backwards. My hands went up because I'm one of those "perserve the center line" weirdos who dosen't bob out of the way of punches. I instinctively went to a reference point, before I even knew what that meant.

I agree, he's talking high/high. That's why I added what I did about h/l/h/l -- to show there were other ways to think about it. Personally, I think anyone who throws a high kick in a streetfight is going to have his ass handed to him by anyone competant.

"I'm not tense; just terribly, terribly alert."

[Sheol]

JKDChick:

Let me get this straight. You were fighting but you were SURPRISED?

The straight blast is not a penetrative striking technique. It was INTENDED to be a lead-in... or as I call it, a preamble. It can be used when the opponent is defensive, timid, and/or reactive. After all, if the opponent is aggressive, offensive, or active, then the distance would be closing anyways. Right?

Here's the bad part. Because the "straight blast" isn't penetrative, it's component strikes will tend to PUSH the opponent away, which ISN'T what you want.

Frankly, I believe that it has more sporting application than combative.

[JKDChick]

I think we're talking about different techniques. No really.
it has more sporting application than combative
I really have no come back to that, if that's what you think. It sounds (I'm sorry, this is going to sound facetious) like you've never seen a proper straight blast, or at least as it is taught by the PFS. Yes, it can be used to close distance (that is a major component) but it's also used to drive people, get them flailing backwards with their hands up. Paul Vunak has stated many many times that he has repeatedly used this combination "Straight Blast/ clinch/headbutt/knee/elbow" to finish fights.

And what, exactly, is unusual about being surprised in a fight? My instructor significantly out-classes me -- I would be more surprised if he didn't surprise me when we spar.

I find the assesment of me as "timid" based on my last post to be hilarious, actually. All my problems, including getting "trashed" by that first straight blast, came from being too agressive, charging in too much.



"I'm not tense; just terribly, terribly alert."

[Sheol]

JKDChick:

:D Answer this then. What does a straight blast accomplish that a single strike doesn't? Nothing, really. Your fists move faster than your body. If you displace your opponent's head in the first strike, the second punch isn't go to do much more. So, what is for? It's for a blocking (defensive) opponent.


Paul Vunak has stated many many times that he has repeatedly used this combination "Straight Blast/ clinch/headbutt/knee/elbow" to finish fights


Well, that explains a lot about Vunak, but there's far better ways to use your brainpain.

Blocking = "straight blast"

Where are you most likely to see a successful block against a lead-in jab? In a sporting match where the fighters have guards up when the fight begins.

Regarding your experience with the "straight blast"... were you charging up the center?

[JKDChick]

Where are you most likely to see a successful block against a lead-in jab? In a sporting match where the fighters have guards up when the fight begins.


Well, yeah you aren't going to have your hands up if someone attacks you without warning. If someone attacks you without warning, you're screwed anyway. A single punch is easy to block/deflect/trap. Charging in with the proper "flurry' of a straight blast puts you close enough to finish the fight with knees/elbows (I'm not a headbutt fan, myself) while your startled opponent is still trying to figure out what happened.

It's hardly the only way of coming in, of course. Just one not a lot of people use.


"I'm not tense; just terribly, terribly alert."

[Sheol]

JKDChick:


"A single punch is easy to block/deflect/trap."

Once more, you are missing the point. Say that YOU are the recipient of a "straight blast".

If you are defensive, you might block/deflect/trap the first strike, but you will probably be overwhelmed by the third or fourth strike. Why? You will be hit because you are still in the line of attack and on the same plane as the attack.

If you are offensive, you are more concerned with attacking targets... like the ones that your opponent opens up to you by attacking in such a linear, mono-planar fashion. So, you attack those targets by changing planes, shifting angle, and CLOSING QUICKLY, perhaps using your opponent's attacking limb to open him up, unbalance him, or increase your leverage. What happens when your opponent is trying to "straight blast" you? His first strike is his only chance. If you evade, deflect, stop-hit, or trap his first strike, he'll have to cross the first punch... (uh, oh) in his attempt to strike a moving target that has changed x, y, and z coordinates over a short period of time.

Of course, you could use a kick for your own lead-in, but the point is that "straight blast" is really more effective against a DEFENSIVE opponent, not an offensive one. Now, if you run straight into it, that's poor tactics. It's like charging a machine-gun nest head-on.