Savate, JKD, Muay Thai

[Nihilanthic]

I understand that. But then again I'm sure I could hurt someone's head if I straddled their neck and humped hard enough...

Its just too flashy for me, personally. The fake low (or make them drop hands) and kick high I do get, though. But your HANDS ARE ALREADY UP THERE! To quote the over-quoted one, "Kicking a head is like punching a toe".

<Me> John, what do you know about Zen Buddhism? <John> *smacks me*
<John> I'd have to smack you sometime...

[Sheol]

Sorry, for getting into this discussion late.

IGBJJs"

"actually, even most karate and TKD instructors will tell you that the round kick is more powerful than the side kick.

reason being is because the round kick, thrown properly, involves hip and shoulder rotation, whereas a side kick is basically thrown with only the quads and glutes, so you can get more body weight behind a round kick."

Savate kicks are not mechanically identical to karate or TKD kicks. As Asia mentioned, savate kicks are intended to work with the natural movement of the body, such running, walking, or even dodging. The torque generated through rotation is coupled with forward movement to create a deceptively simple-looking kick with little or telegraphing aside from what might be NORMAL movement.

A round kick is inferior for reasons such as immobility and telegraphing. With immobility comes the lack of penetration, whereas a proper kick is followed through with the remainder of the body. Only a static target permits penetration on a round kick.

The lack of punching in savate is strange and undoubtedly cultural or legalistic in origin. You see, grappling, punching, kicking, or kneeing was not considered to be separate disciplines, even in George Silver's day ("Paradoxes of Defense"). Older manuscripts reinforce this. Even as practised in the early 19th century, savate, panache, and lutte were used together.

Edited by - Sheol on November 30 2002 17:35:14

[Gezere]

>actually, even most karate and TKD instructors will tell you that the round kick is more powerful than the side kick.

No they won't. Not if they know biomechanics hand how to throw a sidekick. I am suprised to mentioned TKD because it one of the things they do right.

>reason being is because the round kick, thrown properly, involves hip and shoulder rotation, whereas a side kick is basically thrown with only the quads and glutes, so you can get more body weight behind a round kick.

No a yoko geri kekomi/yop kagi or whatever you want to call it should involve rotation of the whole body. When you fininsh the kick you should be looking over you shoulder and you chest should be pointing ins a downward direction. For a yoko geri keage you would only use the muscles you mentioned and a snapping motion.


Sheol,

I trained in a salle in Metz, France about twice a month. I picked up several books and they note that Charles Lecour went to England to study English boxing and blend it with French foot fighting, but John F Gilbey's book "Way of the Warrior" notes that the truth of the matter id he went there to fight a boxer and was defeated. From the defeat he had the English boxing punches.


Nil,

The kick is mentioned in "Tao of Jeet Kune Do" and it is seen in his movies. On some tapes of Bruce's home video he is seen practicing both kick on his bag.

Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invinsible Asia) Emporer of Baji!!! THE FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE AGAINST THE UNITED AUSSIE FRONT!!




Edited by - Asia on November 30 2002 19:10:24

[Sheol]

Asia,

From what I have been able to find, both explanations of Lecour's inclusion of boxing techniques are valid chronologically.

1830 - Charles Lecour vs. Owen Swift: Swift wins, convincing Lecour of the necessity of learning to punch with fists.

~1831 to 1832 - Charles Lecour takes up two years of boxing lessons with English pugilist Jack Adams. Returns home to demonstrate to brother circa. late 1832, early 1833.

So, the stories are not contrary.

[I Give BJJs]

you're both wrong.......about the kicks

[Nihilanthic]

Care to elaborate?

<Me> John, what do you know about Zen Buddhism? <John> *smacks me*
<John> I'd have to smack you sometime...

[TKD Boxer]

The TKD side kick sucks anyway, but then again, so does the TKD Roundhouse.

From my personal exerience I have dropped more people with a Roundhouse than a side kick. But then again I prefer the Roundhouse over the side kick.

The Savate Roundhouse hits with the toe of the shoe, so the kick is like a hammer, where as the Thai Roundhouse hits with the shin, the striking point is larger, more like a baseball bat.

"Wrestlers need a lesson in submission, I'm the one to teach them." - Frank Shamrock

[I Give BJJs]

I already did on the previous page.

Asia doesn't think the round kick is more powerful because he adds a "snapping motion", that's just dead-wrong TKD faggotry right there.

[Sheol]

IGBJJs,

I believe that you are working upon an assumption that linear motion is what is primarily utilized to generate force in a penetrating kick. As for whether it is a 'side-kick' in the generally understood sense of the word.... [shrug] A chasse is, by no means, that.

Edited by - Sheol on December 01 2002 05:32:36

[TKD Boxer]

The snapping motion of the tKD roundhouse takes alot of the power away, bu then again so does the hitting with the instep. And from my experieces getting hit in face with a TKD roudhouse doesn't do much, my head didn't even move much, and also when you hit it doesn't feel to good on your foot.

"Wrestlers need a lesson in submission, I'm the one to teach them." - Frank Shamrock

[Gezere]

IBJJ

You have NO understanding of biomechanics or phsyics (ie don't know what you are talking about)

By all means do some REAL research and find our yourself.

Or do I have to keep making you look dumb. Before you call something faggoty make sure your right. If not, which you are here, you just look stupid. For one thing READ AND COMPREHEND!!! I DID NOT say you add power with snapping motion. I said for a keage type kick you use one but my point the the kekomi, thurst kick, is more powerful.


Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invinsible Asia) Emporer of Baji!!! THE FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE AGAINST THE UNITED AUSSIE FRONT!!




Edited by - Asia on December 02 2002 08:44:32

[SLJ]

>"Kicking a head is like punching a toe".

Yet another stupid quote.

IMO it's hard to knock someone out with a kick to the head, but it is very possible.

Last time I checked punching someone in the toe didn't have much of a chance of knocking them out.

"Blood sugar suckerfish is my dish.
How many pieces do you wish ?"

[Gezere]

>Last time I checked punching someone in the toe didn't have much of a chance of knocking them out.

What if they have VERY bad corns on their toe?

(Sorry I couldn't help it.)

And like I said before. Kicking to the head for a knockout is the more effective means because a kick generates more power than a punch, but it is NOT the post practical due to the greater risk in kicking than in punching.

Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invinsible Asia) Emporer of Baji!!! THE FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE AGAINST THE UNITED AUSSIE FRONT!!

[SLJ]

>(Sorry I couldn't help it.)


You didn't even try :-)


>And like I said before. Kicking to the head for a knockout is the more effective means because a kick generates more power than a punch, but it is NOT the post practical due to the greater risk in kicking than in punching.


I'll have to agree with that.



"Blood sugar suckerfish is my dish.
How many pieces do you wish ?"

[sillitoechris]

Punching the toe?

Who said that. the reason that people kick high is to utilise the added reach of the legs. To sya it is like punching a foot is stupid. you wouldnt bend down to enter someones striking space to make a strike.

On the subject of kicking. We had an eight dan TKD master at a recent grading whos tip to everyone- but especially the lower grades was that you shouldnt just go for big kicks to high sections but use your fists to confuse the opponent and create blind spots and THEN come in with a kick. I dont think anyone with training could that suprised by a high kick if it wasnt hidden amongst other movements.

[SamHarber]

I don't know much about kicks, but I'm bored and thought I'd butt in anyway. From a physics viewpoint, a roundhouse kick relies on angular momentum. The factors involved are the weight of the leg, the length from the pivot to the striking point and the speed of kick. This can be hugely powerful but there are also factors that will reduce its power. Newtons 3rd Law kicks in, as you try and turn the kick, your body will try and react in the opposite direction. The only ways to stop this are to keep your body upright, which will reduce the speed of the kick anyway, or to let it act as a counterweight and keep a totally straight spine/leg structure, but this makes it much harder to initiate as you need to pre torque your supporting leg which may telegraph your intent. However, using your body as a counterweight adds to the effective weight of your leg, resulting in a more powerful kick.

Dear god, I didn't realise I was that bored. I'll stop now. Please feel free to tell me i'm wrong.

"The Andrew Ridgley of being beaten up"