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  1. lightgunsuicide is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/09/2010 8:33pm

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     Style: Jujutsu/aikido

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Koryu jujutsu atemi

    Discuss.

    The koryu bujutsu I've watched/read instructional material on and seen demos of consist of a great deal of atemi.

    Any opinions on the effectiveness of koryu jujutsu atemi as opposed to focused striking arts?

    Does judo (and aikido for that matter) suffer from a lack of atemi?
  2. mrtnira is online now

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    Posted On:
    9/09/2010 9:54pm


     Style: Karate

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Those are pretty broad questions. And, please keep in mind things change over time. Also, any one answering your question can only speak from their own experience, or from their own textual research into documents from history which clearly identify the use of atemi in one era, and possibly show its continuance or its absence of use in the next era.

    As far as Aikido is concerned, photos from the 1930's show atemi in Aikibujutsu (pre-Aikido) as it was practiced by Morihei Ueshiba, the founder of Aikido. It was used apparently as a preparatory move to destabilize the opponent before a take down or control move. Looking at the 1970's five volume publication Traditional Aikido by Morihiro Saito, it also shows a continued use of atemi as a preparation to a throw or control move.

    The 1930's in Japan saw an era of active militarization, techniques could then be expected to reflect their combat form. After 1945, the pacification of Japan occurred because of the severe negative effects of militarism on the nation. This influenced how people looked at combatives -- you get a lot of "conquering yourself" talk, and now, in talking with one Aikido man I know, he practices a form (derivation) of Aikido that emphasizes avoidance of combat to such a degree he said, "If you get into a fight you've lost." And, he meant not that you've lost the fight, but that you failed in non-violence/peace. I suspect other schools remain closer to the original core body of techniques and that atemi is practiced.

    So, what era are you looking at? And, what branch of Aikido are you looking at? Chronology and context really do count.

    *Honesty in advertising -- I am not an aikidoist. I just do a lot of home work. My degree was in Asian History, and it remained with me over time. Others on the forum might help clarify your questions by their practice. And, better educated people might clarify this chronolgy for you if it is necessary.
  3. daishi is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/09/2010 11:59pm


     Style: Aikido/JJJ/Judo/GoJu Ryu

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    Whoa! Aikido and Judo are in no way Koryu. Koryu are generally considered pre Meiji restoration martial arts. Even iaido is generally not considered koryu. These are all gendai budo. http://www.koryu.com/guide/ryuguide.html
    ...just saying.

    Atemi is generally designed as a setup for transition into another movement. Saying that, Gozo Shioda used to use an ippon ken that many would argue was quite a focused strike.

    My aikido school has atemi included, and taught specifically, in almost every #1 variation of our techniques (moving toward partner). Atemi is done in a specific way for a specific reason to help with each technique.

    Yes, I think atemi is important in aikido. Maybe less so in Judo if your in a clinch already...but if your starting from a kamae in judo I use atemi sometimes.
  4. Lindz is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/10/2010 12:12am

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     Style: Judo

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  5. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    9/10/2010 12:28am

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lindz View Post
    Judo has atemi. But it still suffers

    )
    Kime No Kata techniques are from koryu ju jutsu. From what I can gather from the latest thread at Judo Forum, the techniques are probably from Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu and possibly Sosuishitsu Ryu.

    As such, they are not "modern" striking techniques, and have to be looked at in the context of their time of origin.

    My understnding is that modern versions of Kime No Kata to Kodokan standards tend to be a bit weak, so take what you see with a grain of salt.

    Ben
  6. maofas is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/10/2010 12:40am

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     Style: Kenkojuku Karate, Judo

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    Judo has atemi much in the same way Karate has grappling: it's theoretically in the katas, but almost no one actually practices it, much less train the techniques in an effective manner.

    I don't think Judo suffers from lack of atemi. Boxing has extremely limited tools and as a result tends to teach the best punching out there.
  7. lightgunsuicide is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/10/2010 7:38am

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     Style: Jujutsu/aikido

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    Quote Originally Posted by daishi View Post
    Whoa! Aikido and Judo are in no way Koryu.
    I am aware what koryu are... koryu jujutsu =/= judo or aikido.

    EDIT: As mentioned previously am considering hontai yoshin ryu (which includes more than jujutsu in its syllabus).
  8. judoist is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/10/2010 7:42am


     Style: Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    From what I can gather from the latest thread at Judo Forum, the techniques are probably from Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu and possibly Sosuishitsu Ryu.
    Sosuishitsu-ryu? Really? I thought that TJSYR was the only atemi influence on Judo. Please post the link to the JudoForum thread you were talking about.
  9. lightgunsuicide is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/10/2010 9:58am

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     Style: Jujutsu/aikido

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrtnira View Post
    Those are pretty broad questions. And, please keep in mind things change over time. Also, any one answering your question can only speak from their own experience, or from their own textual research into documents from history which clearly identify the use of atemi in one era, and possibly show its continuance or its absence of use in the next era.
    Thank you Captain Obvious. :)

    As far as Aikido is concerned, photos from the 1930's show atemi in Aikibujutsu (pre-Aikido) as it was practiced by Morihei Ueshiba, the founder of Aikido. It was used apparently as a preparatory move to destabilize the opponent before a take down or control move. Looking at the 1970's five volume publication Traditional Aikido by Morihiro Saito, it also shows a continued use of atemi as a preparation to a throw or control move.
    Daito ryu still maintains a lot of atemi in its kata.

    Then again, compare Kato Shigemitsu (footage available all over the internet) with Katsuyuki Kondo (again, easily obtained on youtube or elsewhere). Kondo's kata is less focused on atemi and largely focuses on nagewaza.

    So, what era are you looking at? And, what branch of Aikido are you looking at? Chronology and context really do count.
    Apply only to koryu jujutsu/taijutsu that survives today which include atemi. Original era unimportant (so long as its not recent enough to disqualify it as koryu).
    Last edited by lightgunsuicide; 9/10/2010 10:01am at . Reason: (EDIT: spelling correction)
  10. mrtnira is online now

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    Posted On:
    9/10/2010 4:23pm


     Style: Karate

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    Captain Obvious.... Heheeee. :-)
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