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  1. Evilenzo is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/09/2010 9:58am


     Style: Aikido, Aikiken, Aikijo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Exams

    Hello everyone!

    I wanted to ask something to the Aikido practitioners around here: in the last years, the Aikikai has removed several tecniques from the exam's program. For example, Aikiotoshi and, this year, Koshinage.

    They say they're removing it, like kick defense, from the curriculum in order to avoid injuries.

    Do you think this is right? If so, doesn't this go against the Martial part of Martial Arts?
  2. dizzie56 is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/09/2010 10:06am


     Style: boxing, bjj

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Where did you here that they were removing anything and when is that suppossed to happen? You have a link?
  3. Evilenzo is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/09/2010 10:14am


     Style: Aikido, Aikiken, Aikijo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've seen the current program, and koshinage has no more part in it.

    I forgot to mention that i'm talking about Italian Aikikai, i suppose the program is the same around the world.

    http://www.aikikai.it/ click on "programma esami"
  4. daishi is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/09/2010 10:18am


     Style: Aikido/JJJ/Judo/GoJu Ryu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Dojo cho can add whatever they want to their curriculum. Aikikai is a sweeping generalization and can mean many things (mostly direct lineage to Ueshiba in Japan's honbu). I am sure many dojo won't do this...but yes, a link would be of interest to see. Doesn't effect me at all, but I'd be curious to read it.

    With that, this decision is made obviously with a business mentality...preventing injury. While I feel everyone has the right to train for their own reasons, this decision is leaning my to think aikikai is moving in the direction of their aikido no longer being a martial art...like the Ki Society. Aikido, being a "do," or path to self development/betterment, is not effective without a martial aspect. Some element of risk and difficulty is required for growth....if your not doing that your grab-assing for two hours a night at class. Aikido, being a modern martial art, should be enjoyable and fun...but its a FUcking marital Art! This **** should be taken seriously!! ****!Just because aikido is compliant doesn't mean you can't train hard and train with physical and mental intent.

    I had no idea about kick defense. In my lineage we basically just added kick defense only 12 years ago or so. I think kick defense is more of a North American addition to aikido...I have no basis of saying that, it just seems that way.

    Oh, to answer your question; yes, the act of removing those things takes away martial aspect, and no I don't like it makes me a little sad.

    Oh, and its also an indicator that people can't teach ukemi anymore. Which, as I've traveled to many dojo, is a huge problem at dojo.
  5. judoist is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/09/2010 10:19am


     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    When is the last time someone properly trained in breakfalls got hurt from a Koshinage (Ogoshi in Judo)?

    I for one have never seen it happen, because in my school (and just about any Judo school everywhere), a person is trained to breakfall properly before they start drilling a throw.

    If Aikido students are getting hurt from hip throws, they need more ukemi training, not less throws.
  6. daishi is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/09/2010 10:21am


     Style: Aikido/JJJ/Judo/GoJu Ryu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    ..I was all happy because my wife bought us a new bed and its coming in today.

    Anyway, we have technically three types of koshinage required to learn, but as many of our aikido students train in our Judo classes we koshi the **** out of each other. I just started going full time to the judo and jujitsu classes at my dojo and I've got a pretty good handle on the judo hip throws up to around 3rd kyu in the curriculum just from exposure in aikido class and seminars.
  7. dizzie56 is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/09/2010 10:48am


     Style: boxing, bjj

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I know that in our schools (ASU) it hasnt been removed and I dont see them being removed. Of course, we dont call aiki otoshi that, we just refer to it as another way of doing a koshi.

    On a side not, Ive only had one class on kick defense and it was pretty fun. Tho, as I was told, we dont do it often because Aikidoka dont practice kicking well enough for it to be an effective kick. Basically, we suck at kicking and the funny pants aint helpin.
  8. daishi is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/09/2010 11:40am


     Style: Aikido/JJJ/Judo/GoJu Ryu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Aikidoka? You mean ASU aikidoka. My aikido class trains, and tests, for defense against mae geri, yoko geri, mawashigeri and ushiro geri. We practice these during junbi undo at the beginning of most classes...well, we practice the kicks each class. We don't practice kick defense every class.

    Aiki otoshi is generally stepping behind uke and using that leg as a fulcrum for the throw...usually picking up the legs to help. Pretty much sukui nage in judo.

    For our hip throws, required in our curriculum are O Goshi, Kata Guruma, and another one which is hard to explain...I guess a cross between Sode Tsurikomi goshi and Morote Seonage. We also regularly do koshi guruma...well basically the other judo hip throws. But those first three are required. Its not required to know their proper names though....we just call them koshi nage variations 1-3. I think we call kata guruma "gyaku koshi nage," lol. Tai Otoshi is in some of our techniques as well...but that's not really a koshi nage.
  9. Rock Ape is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/09/2010 11:54am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I studied Aikikai Aikido for just over two decades holding affiliation to Hombu Dojo in Japan, They removed almost all buki waza from the curricula some time ago. I can't comment on current developments because I no longer have anything to do within either Hombu Dojo or Aikido as a martial art however, to answer the OP's question..

    No, I don't personally think it is right for [whomever] to be removing techniques from what was the accepted curriculum however, they can do whatever they essentially like, it's up to the individual dojo-cho to decided if they wish to abide by the technical directions laid out from the Shihan in Japan.

    If I were still running my affiliated dojo, I wouldn't stop teaching buki-waza or taiso to my own students. But that's just me.
    "To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".

    ~Ella Wheeler
  10. dizzie56 is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/09/2010 12:56pm


     Style: boxing, bjj

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by daishi View Post
    Aikidoka? You mean ASU aikidoka. My aikido class trains, and tests, for defense against mae geri, yoko geri, mawashigeri and ushiro geri. We practice these during junbi undo at the beginning of most classes...well, we practice the kicks each class. We don't practice kick defense every class.

    Aiki otoshi is generally stepping behind uke and using that leg as a fulcrum for the throw...usually picking up the legs to help. Pretty much sukui nage in judo.

    For our hip throws, required in our curriculum are O Goshi, Kata Guruma, and another one which is hard to explain...I guess a cross between Sode Tsurikomi goshi and Morote Seonage. We also regularly do koshi guruma...well basically the other judo hip throws. But those first three are required. Its not required to know their proper names though....we just call them koshi nage variations 1-3. I think we call kata guruma "gyaku koshi nage," lol. Tai Otoshi is in some of our techniques as well...but that's not really a koshi nage.

    What branch do you study under? Just wondering because I would like to look up alot of the kick defenses as I havent seen them really anywhere. The guy that taught us them that night got his shodon under a Yoshinkai school, just figured thats where he got them.

    As far as our koshi go, we dont generally name them either. We just call out the attack and attempt to do a koshi from there. So like shomenuchi koshinage, yokomenuchi koshi, etc, at least from what I have seen in my dojo.

    Also, as far as the people getting hurt as the OP has said is a bunch of bs. Proper ukemi fixes that and there is no reason as to not do them. I can see not doing them everynight lol, but to completely remove them is bs.
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