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  1. BSONE is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/19/2010 6:28am


     Style: ASU Aikido

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Simio de las Rocas View Post
    Does anyone routinely carry a sword now-a-days ?

    No.

    The application of the small joint manipulation within aikido which works through the tsuka of a sword, the shaff of a jo or, through hand to hand does not make aikido a weapon retention art.

    What you're seeing are the historical origins, not the actual purpose of the discipline created by Ueshiba Morihei.
    I understand the difference.
  2. Rock Ape is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/19/2010 9:00am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BSONE View Post
    I understand the difference.
    No worries, it's a shame many others don't.

    The technical similarities between how a nihonto is drawn in a (near) vertical motion, against the kihon of omote ikkyo are almost identical in many common respects, as are those when making ura waza for the same technique.

    The question whether aikido is weapon retention applicable really should be more biased toward if aikido was based (in part) on the ability to effectively draw a bladed weapon whilst having your controlling hand immobilised.

    Look at shiho nage as a good example: If wearing a nihonto at the point where the left wrist (or tsuka) is grasped, the movements made by tori (in an empty hand situation) very easily translate to how a real sword would be drawn, cut across the hara then making the final cut- which would otherwise be the actions by tori which create either tobu ukemi or, an immobilisation.

    Sokumen irimi nage is another such example, this time the sword is already drawn, but the taisabaki involved in positioning yourself 'inside' the attack is also placing yourself in position to make a vertical cut through the front of the neck.

    To be honest the list of comparables is lengthy in this regard however, the comparables for "weapon retention" aren't.
    "To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".

    ~Ella Wheeler
  3. BSONE is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/19/2010 3:21pm


     Style: ASU Aikido

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Simio de las Rocas View Post
    No worries, it's a shame many others don't.


    To be honest the list of comparables is lengthy in this regard however, the comparables for "weapon retention" aren't.
    I agree.

    I try to use examples like you mentioned when teaching aikido, especially to beginners and intermediate students. Even if they are not dedicated to ken training, I think it helps clarify basic aikido shapes and the basis for techniques.

    Aside from that, I have no real experieince with weapon retention stuff, especially none with modern weapons. I have never really even seen any decent demos, so yea, you wont here me talking weapon retention :)
  4. daishi is online now

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    Posted On:
    10/20/2010 4:45am


     Style: Aikido/JJJ/Judo/GoJu Ryu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    All of our 8 (I think its 8) core techniques have an related sword movement that is often asked to be demonstrated during testing.
  5. Rock Ape is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/20/2010 4:47am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Do you train using iaito or just purely bokuto ?
    "To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".

    ~Ella Wheeler
  6. willaume is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/20/2010 7:40am


     Style: aikido, medieval fencing

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    Quote Originally Posted by daishi View Post
    All of our 8 (I think its 8) core techniques have an related sword movement that is often asked to be demonstrated during testing.
    Hello
    I think that it is a bit different from what is being discussed above.

    We do have the not so usual 10 kumi-jo 5 kumi-tachi (with 2 body and the two swords variations each, the 20 jo +7 sword saburi, 7 ken awasai and variations and the 13 jo kata and the 31 (+31 blocks and variation).

    So you can relate pretty much every technique to something done in the aforementioned sword and jo technique. In fact that is kind of one of the point of the Ruyai system.

    And yes you can relate the 9 main techniques(shiho, kote, irimi nague, kaiten, tenchi, ikkio, nikkio, sankio, ionkio) to proper weapon retention (as in someone prevent you to draw/stike withe open hand to disarm you and that ends up with your sword in him or in somebody else).

    Or you can’t the 9 main techniques preventing wrestling when using a weapon

    And that probably where they come from but it is not what they are used for

    For exemple you have kote gaishy and sankio when fencing/wrestling on horse in the ringeck.
    And unless O sensei was fluent in medieval high german we can not say that aikido is designed to fight from horse back.

    philippe
    Last edited by willaume; 10/20/2010 7:46am at .
  7. Zerstörer90 is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/27/2010 10:13pm


     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Aikido is not complete bull

    While most styles are very rigid and slow, this isn't the case for all styles in aikido. And "ki" is not magic. It's a principle for using relaxation to create what I can only describe as "dead weight". You ever see a kid in a store throwing a tantrum and his mom is trying to pick him up, he just slumps down and she can't move him? Same thing. The style I take is Kokikai Aikido, which was founded by Shuji Maruyama, direct student and uchi deshi for Koichi Tohei, who was a 1st generation student of O-sensei. Maruyama even did some work with O-sensei later in his life. Tohei brought alot to aikido, though modern "ki society" schools are ineffective as far as i can see. Still rigid, no fluidity, trying to force technique. Maruyama has brought just as much, his theory on aikido is that it is an ever-evolving art. He came to America when Aikido was still relatively young anywhere except for Japan. So he, frankly, got destroyed by fast striking martial arts, and advanced grapplers. He then modified his techniques, through trial and error, to come to some basic principles that make aikido insanely effective. The first of which is to master evasion. Don't get hit. By taking out the rigidity of the techniques and taking alot more balance, implementing small changes in technique, and training with resistance, It starts to work more smoothly. Also, trying to figure techniques from the jab, leg kicks, and clinch can help you loads.
    as for compared to other martial arts? It's a coin toss really. There is no art that will make you an "ultimate badass". That is up to how you train. If you train aikido techniques in hardcore situations with people who know what they are doing, you can use aikido in hardcore situations against people who know what they are doing.
    ok... That is my rant.

    Also, my sensei is 34, and he can still take on 5 people all trying to beat the hell out of him no problem. Train in what you want. If you want to be a master, you have to train to become a master. No style will give you more effectiveness. And Aikidokas, if your aikido doesn't work after 12 years? then you are doing it wrong. Period. I've only taken aikido for 2 years and I can easily apply technique in a self defense situation, without killing anyone.
  8. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/27/2010 10:47pm

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You need to shut the **** up.
  9. SaintHamish is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/27/2010 10:49pm


     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokikai90 View Post
    I've only taken aikido for 2 years and I can easily apply technique in a self defense situation, without killing anyone.

    You fail.
  10. Zerstörer90 is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/28/2010 12:20am


     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    yea... right

    Ok, so i fail because... what? I've only taken Aikido for 2 years? Well I've also been studying martial arts for 8 years on top of that. I've used Taekwondo, Kempo, and Hapkido effectively in actual self defense situations, and I am telling you that aikido works just as well if not better, and without hurting people. I understand that you wont believe me, I just wanted to lay the information out for the person who actually investigates something prior to condemning it. And also, on another note. What is so bad about a martial art that focuses on not hurting people? IMPO, that is what studying MA is all about. Go ahead and start a brawl with someone and armbar them, break their arm or get stabbed trying, or go clinch someone and break their eyesocket (which I've done before), you have to be delusional, or mental to think that this is what "effective self defense" is. If effective is landing yourself in jail, in the hospital, or on the business end of a lawsuit, then bravo. But I can tell you right now, Aikido is real. And we have nothing to prove to you imbeciles who think we are soft. I come from a rich background of striking, and bone-breaking, hard style martial arts. I walked into the dojo on my first day with the mentality of alot of you. "I'm going to kick all these people's asses" Well, guess what? I didn't. As a matter of fact, my sensei spent the class throwing my head into the ground, while i kept getting up and trying to hit him. I couldn't hit him. I couldn't even touch him. My back hurt for 2 weeks from falling incorrectly. Then about a month ago he threw me so hard i couldn't breath and i almost passed out. He helped me up and told me "That was maybe a tenth of the force of a full throw."
    So, coming from that. How do I fail? Because I like a martial art that you dont? Because after only 2 years I'm seeing results from a martial art you don't understand? Or because I'm one of the few aikidokas who is sick of idiots on the internet telling everyone how aikido is fake/stupid? Hm... I'll tell you what. Google a Kokikai Aikido dojo near you. Grab a video camera. Go in, ask the instructor for a personal demonstration, Challenge him even. Record what happens and post it on the internet to show how "ineffective" and stupid it is. Until then, you fail.

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