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  1. mrtnira is online now

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    Posted On:
    9/06/2010 6:26am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    British researcher works on ninja scroll validation.

    For those of you who are interested, Antony Cummins (no "h" in his name) is working on recovering and testing information found in the various scrolls left behind by "ninja" from the classical period.

    While developing information for formal publication, he is putting a lot of what he is finding and testing on You Tube. I suspect he is also developing demand for a final product. But, it serves the purpose of education, as well.

    YouTube- My Letter To Dr Massaki Hatsumi About His Scrolls

    In this he asks Dr. Hastumi for access to his scrolls, as part of a validation effort. Since the question of document validity in relation to the Bujinkan has come up in several threads, some forum participants may actually be interesed in Mr. Cummins' effort to establish fact.
  2. BaronVonDingDong is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/06/2010 7:51am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    A guy mailing a letter doesn't qualify as research by any professionally understood standard of that term.
  3. mrtnira is online now

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    Posted On:
    9/06/2010 8:25am


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    Baron, your comment is understood for its face value. A letter by itself is not research.

    If you look into Mr. Cummins and his work, you might find it of value as part of the developing body of knowledge about classical ninjutsu. It is up to you, of course. Like any post, information is brought to the forum, but it is how the individual reader receives it.

    Mr. Cummins has posted a series of You Tube videos where he tests the information in scrolls and period documents with the help of a Japanese translator. It is a very interesting little series where he tests and validates the material by physically practicing what is described in the texts.
  4. judoist is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/06/2010 9:03am


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    This is what I dug up:

    http://www.ninpo.org/historicalrecords/shnnkmkrk.htm

    This is the link to what they claim is the "Shoninki". If anyone here can read this (provided it's actually Nihongo), please do so.

    It would also be interesting to e-mail this
    to Meik and Diane Skoss of Koryu Books for their opinion.

    Note that Otake Risuke, head instructor of the Tenshinsho-den Katori Shinto-ryu Kenjutsu, wrote the foreword (or so it says on the cover).
  5. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/06/2010 9:40am

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrtnira View Post
    Baron, your comment is understood for its face value. A letter by itself is not research.

    If you look into Mr. Cummins and his work, you might find it of value as part of the developing body of knowledge about classical ninjutsu. It is up to you, of course. Like any post, information is brought to the forum, but it is how the individual reader receives it.

    Mr. Cummins has posted a series of You Tube videos where he tests the information in scrolls and period documents with the help of a Japanese translator. It is a very interesting little series where he tests and validates the material by physically practicing what is described in the texts.
    This is still not research and his comment has more than face value worth. If the research is flawed the findings will be flawed and it will just add more BS to the problem.
  6. Moenstah is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/06/2010 9:43am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So someone without a specialisation in Japanese history, tries to publish genuine ninja texts without knowledge of classical Japanese himself? And all he asks is some parts of the source be sent to him, all in good faith?

    I guess 'formal publication' doesn't mean 'peer reviewed' then...
  7. mrtnira is online now

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    Posted On:
    9/06/2010 10:15am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Trying to keep things on the up -- I actually asked Mr. Cummins to join us in this discussion if he thought it would help.

    Like everyone here, my goal is an accurate history on this subject and not to create any more confusion than already exists. Should he join on this, he can get to the root of the questions about method, etc.

    Moenstah, for my own experience, I can tell you (honestly) the use of native language translators in the facilitation of research by non-native speakers is routine. The use of texts translated by others is common.

    Maybe the clearest picture of this is a conversation I had with a woman 20 years ago. She was a German-speaking woman who translated documents for the American government during the Second World War. She was invisible to the system. Her translations became the source documents for planning and estimates written by English-speaking American officers, the experts. This is just one example, but it typifies the process and its longevity of practice.
  8. Moenstah is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/06/2010 10:25am


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    Quote Originally Posted by mrtnira View Post
    Trying to keep things on the up -- I actually asked Mr. Cummins to join us in this discussion if he thought it would help.

    Like everyone here, my goal is an accurate history on this subject and not to create any more confusion than already exists. Should he join on this, he can get to the root of the questions about method, etc.

    Moenstah, for my own experience, I can tell you (honestly) the use of native language translators in the facilitation of research by non-native speakers is routine. The use of texts translated by others is common.

    Maybe the clearest picture of this is a conversation I had with a woman 20 years ago. She was a German-speaking woman who translated documents for the American government during the Second World War. She was invisible to the system. Her translations became the source documents for planning and estimates written by English-speaking American officers, the experts. This is just one example, but it typifies the process and its longevity of practice.
    Okay, I understand that it's a valuable aid for one's research, but I'm a bit paranoid; whenever possible, I would like to read the source in the original language.

    My main problem with mr. Cummins approach is that apparently he requires only a part of the source, from someone who has a keen interest in projecting a particular view of ninjutsu and its history.

    It would be quite interesting to find out on which exact grounds Hatsumi's request to be recognised as a koryu got turned down. Those guys examined his scrolls, didn't they?
  9. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/06/2010 10:30am

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    If you look into Mr. Cummins and his work, you might find it of value as part of the developing body of knowledge about classical ninjutsu.
    You are correct. So, I did look into his work and some of his background.

    Trying to keep things on the up -- I actually asked Mr. Cummins to join us in this discussion if he thought it would help.
    Up & Up.
    Shinobi Soldiers - Martial Arts Planet
    Antony Cummins, author of Shinobi Soldiers et al - a discussion about his background - Martial Arts Planet

    http://www.natori.co.uk/
    http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gi...2164591&ref=ts

    I'll let others read the threads and judge for themselves. Monestah, there are HUGE debates on translation vs. Original language. Saying it is common is glossing over the problem.
  10. mrtnira is online now

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    Posted On:
    9/06/2010 10:39am


     Style: Karate

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thank you, It is Fake. I am hoping that Mr. Cummins will join us, to everyone's benefit.
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