Advice on FMA clinchwork?

**jspeedy** · Posted On: 9/12/2010 11:46pm

Originally Posted by Chili Pepper

My suggestion is lots of time playing "Whose Stick Is It Anyway" - one stick between two partners, both of you start with both hands gripping the stick, and you fight for control. Spend too much time worrying about the stick, and your partner will punch you. Spend too much time punching, and your partner will wrest the stick away from you.

My fave option is to start by pulling the stick towards me with both hands, which allows me to drive a head-butt forwards.

Sounds like a decent drill. I'll suggest it tomorrow night in class.

I worked Ryno's "option B" recently, worked pretty well. I managed a few variations that seemed to work out also.

Last week while doing some training in my garage with a buddy i suggested we do a few grappling-only sessions starting from a few common "standoff" positions. It was a nice live competitive sparring session using the sticks without the need for protective gear. Overall it was a great experience and I think we'll incorporate it into the weekly class.

**Mr. Machette** · Posted On: 9/13/2010 7:30pm

Originally Posted by jspeedy

In my FMA sparring I occasionally find myself in a sort of "clinch" scenerio. We spar using a single stick and eventually when I enter the clinch range i'll find myself grabbing my opponents stick or stick arm, usually i'll rain a few blows then my stick or stick arm gets grabbed too, kind of resulting in a mexican stand off. So to clarify i'm holding my opponents stick and he's holding mine as well. Depending on the training space we'll sometimes include takedowns which is an easy transition from the mexican standoff position I just described. The problem arises if want to stay standing and free me stick hand. usually we'll wrestle around a little and eventually someone has to let go of the others hand to accomplish anything. Occasionaly, I can wrench my stick arm free or use a weaving motion to break the grip.

My main question is do you ever find yourself in this mexican standoff position and if so how do you handle it? Does anyone know of any video demonstrating this scenario that shows any technique?

If you've got the "stick" or "stick arm", then go for the disarm as you are "raining blows", thus dominating before the "standoff".

**jspeedy** · Posted On: 9/14/2010 5:50pm

Originally Posted by Mr. Machette

If you've got the "stick" or "stick arm", then go for the disarm as you are "raining blows", thus dominating before the "standoff".

If I have the space, I go for a disarm I have 2 I can pull off frequently. I don't want to open up a big discussion about different fighting ranges but I find the majority of disarms are usually applied in a trapping range. The 2 I use most can be pulled off in rather close but some require a little more space.

I suppose if I have room to strike i'd also have room to disarm. The trouble mainly arises when body contact is made (ex chest to chest, shoulder to chest ect.) and there is no space to strike.

**nomamao** · Posted On: 9/15/2010 10:28am

the next place to go is takedown, in my opinion. What's the point in keeping it standing if you are just grappling anyway? Throw him to the ground. I don't know if you want to go down with him, but... that's another topic, I guess.

**Permalost** · Posted On: 9/15/2010 10:41am

Originally Posted by nomamao

the next place to go is takedown, in my opinion. What's the point in keeping it standing if you are just grappling anyway? Throw him to the ground. I don't know if you want to go down with him, but... that's another topic, I guess.

The problem is that's not always up to you. I assume you do sanshou/sanda in kung fu? If so, you know that if your throwing technique is a little off, you'll get dragged down and won't get points for the takedown. In this context I might keep it standing so I can draw a second weapon (a training knife) which might not be as accessible on the ground (since I keep them somewhere around the waist area, I might end up pinned on top of it or have their body covering it). But a takedown might also provide you some time (and space) to draw that weapon too. At the last Dog Brothers gathering I side kicked a guy and he fell down, and I threw my weapon at him on the ground, and while he was getting up I was able to draw and open a folding trainer.

**Ryno** · Posted On: 9/15/2010 11:44am

I think that there's a debate for either side here, re- grappling or going for secondary weapon. I think it all just depends on the situation and your competency in what you're trying to achieve.

I personally don't carry a concealed secondary weapon when sparring. And I'm pretty good at throwing people. So for me, getting someone vertical (and combatively, spiking them on their head) isn't a big deal. I can do it really quickly. So for some people in some circumstances, this is a totally legitimate option and possible fight-ender.

Yet, if I was carrying a secondary weapon, and had a well-trained quick draw, this would also be a valid option, and potential fight ender as well. Totally legitimate and possible.

Thirdly, if I've got some sick boxing skills and blazingly fast hands, simply releasing your opponent's stick and laying them out with a quick left hook could be a good way to finish things as well.

When it comes to entangled stick work, I could see any of these approaches as completely valid choices. They are simple and effective, so there's no reason that they couldn't work for some people in certain scenerios. The only stuff I'd avoid would be anything intricate an multi-stepped (obviously). Because if you try this against anyone who's competent with grappling, secondary utilization, or boxing, you'll simply get your ass handed to you.

**Permalost** · Posted On: 9/15/2010 12:48pm

Originally Posted by Ryno

When it comes to entangled stick work, I could see any of these approaches as completely valid choices. They are simple and effective, so there's no reason that they couldn't work for some people in certain scenerios. The only stuff I'd avoid would be anything intricate an multi-stepped (obviously). Because if you try this against anyone who's competent with grappling, secondary utilization, or boxing, you'll simply get your ass handed to you.

I agree. It seems like some arts try to combine as much together as possible, and end up being confusing. It’s like the kempo/bujinkan/some FMA etc unspoken view that the more dangerous stuff you can jam into a technique, the better it will be, and this is not the case. There’s gotta be a nerve strike, standing joint lock, throw, kick and stomp. An example I like to use is kicking the shin- some styles teach a knee kick/shin rake/instep stomp all put together, when you would probably have better results focusing your efforts on properly applying any one of those things.

I don’t always (or even often) carry a secondary weapon when sparring with weapons, but for the DB gathering it was noted that this was encouraged and everyone seemed to have one in their waistband or pocket, so I figured I should too. I also do a lot more knife sparring than stick sparring because I’m kind of a wuss, so I’m almost more comfortable with that weapon than a stick. There was one big guy with a biker vest who had many secondary training knives, the idea being that he could reach at least one in any position. There was one sticking out the top of the back of his shirt/vest (I didn’t get this one because I can’t imagine carrying a knife that way), one in each pocket (including a third lower pocket for a cellphone or something) and I think one in the waistband. I fought with him, and before the match I burned all those locations into my head, so if grappling started I could try to stop him from getting a weapon, and so that if things went to the ground I could start stealing his knives to use on him. I figure with just one, it’s a lot easier to keep track of them. In the end there wasn’t really grappling in the match so it’s kind of a moot point.

**Ryno** · Posted On: 9/15/2010 3:02pm

That is funny as hell. It's just such an arms race with some guys, and I just find that ridiculous. I mean, yeah sure, if you usually carry a folder or whatever, I can see that as a legitimate secondary option when sparring. But we're not on some ancient battlefield, and I just have a hard time subscribing to these contrived Mad Max scenerios where a dude is carrying 12 blades on him at all times.

It usually seems that guys who do this, are either big time larpers, paranoid, or wannabe tough guys who don't care in fighting fair. I suppose as an academic exercise at a gathering, it's all good fun. But it just seems kind of silly to me.

I'd rather just get good at my basic skills with a stick, knife, unarmed striking, and grappling, than try to play this game of escalation with stick > knife > hidden sword > concealed pistol > AK47 in trunk of car > armored car with 50 cal > Bradley > Abrams > AC130, etc. At a certain line, it just gets ridiculous, and I'd draw that line pretty quickly.

**Permalost** · Posted On: 9/15/2010 4:31pm

Originally Posted by Ryno

It usually seems that guys who do this, are either big time larpers, paranoid, or wannabe tough guys who don't care in fighting fair. I suppose as an academic exercise at a gathering, it's all good fun. But it just seems kind of silly to me.

I agree. I’m never going to be carrying a bunch of backup weapons, so pulling them out in sparring doesn’t really represent anything I’d do in the real world. Also the premise of carrying a bunch of knives is super outdated- if you’re that worried about self defense, you should probably get a concealed carry permit instead. It can’t be good for you psychologically to be carrying a few pounds of sharp steel everywhere “just in case”. On the other hand, I do appreciate some good Mad Max hypotheticals, and would probably sign up for some kind of Gangs of New York peasant warfare larps if there was such a thing.

**nomamao** · Posted On: 9/16/2010 1:50am

Originally Posted by CodosDePiedra

The problem is that's not always up to you. I assume you do sanshou/sanda in kung fu? If so, you know that if your throwing technique is a little off, you'll get dragged down and won't get points for the takedown. In this context I might keep it standing so I can draw a second weapon (a training knife) which might not be as accessible on the ground (since I keep them somewhere around the waist area, I might end up pinned on top of it or have their body covering it). But a takedown might also provide you some time (and space) to draw that weapon too. At the last Dog Brothers gathering I side kicked a guy and he fell down, and I threw my weapon at him on the ground, and while he was getting up I was able to draw and open a folding trainer.

I used to train for leitai and takedowns (throws) were part of the game, and then I did some Schuai Chiao to understand the takedown game a little better from a kungfuey angle. I'm no longer training that way right now, though. (interesting story--I've been ejected from my brotherhood. LOL.)

But, it all depends on what's given in the standing exchange. If you feel he's losing his balance, take advantage... if he's coming too hard and you feel you can take him for a ride, why not? You win some and you lose some. Of course you can mess up and end up with the other guy smashing the back of your head in, but that's the nature of the game--you can always mess up.

But, if I knew there was a secondary weapon in play, I would forgo the ground and puño, too... just hold them up and offbalance them enough to pull and stab. I see your point.