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  1. Man_Among_Men is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/02/2009 7:23am


     Style: Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    How are you supposed to use fancy FMA stuff in empty hands?

    So you're boxing, kickboxing in sparring, are you supposed to trick your opponent into predictive jabcross patterns or what because all this really fancy lethal **** assumes a predictable jab cross sort of combo


    If you are pissed off reading this I apologize for coming off rude, it's really a sincere question because I like fma a lot, but I have difficulty seeing how to apply any of it's "fancy" stuff

    like how on earth would you apply this on a jab cross "parry the jab, cover-gunting the cross, grab the wrist and elbow the triceps, scoop the right arm and elbow the face" etc


    and this is "basic" in the fancy series of filipino boxing/panantukan


    I can see how to pull it off when you know your opponent is going to jab cross in this fashion, but other than that?


    How?

    thanks in advance
  2. Kuma is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/02/2009 8:29am


     Style: blunt trauma

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Short answer: You don't.

    Long answer: You don't because it doesn't fucking work. Just hit the guy in the throat or grind him into the floor. Or, do t3h R34L FMA and hack him to bits with your handy machete.

    Let me be more specific; If you're hoping to use a particular technique in an actual fight, you are going to get your ass handed to you, quite literally, by a loving relative when you wake up in the ICU. Fights are inherently unpredictable. You can not trick your opponent into doing exactly what you want him to do so you can use your one favorite technique, and the fancier that technique is, the less likely it is to work even when your opponent happens to do exactly what you want him to do.

    If your opponent refuses to cooperate, punch him in the face or choke him out. Simplicity is always best.
    Last edited by Kuma; 9/02/2009 8:35am at .
  3. Chili Pepper is offline
    Chili Pepper's Avatar

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    Posted On:
    9/02/2009 8:34am


     Style: Siling Labuyo Arnis

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Among_Men View Post
    like how on earth would you apply this on a jab cross "parry the jab, cover-gunting the cross, grab the wrist and elbow the triceps, scoop the right arm and elbow the face" etc
    You wouldn't, or more properly, you couldn't. It's something that drives me nuts about FMA in general: one guy swinging a stick and stopping it in mid-air, so that the other guy can do his half-dozen strikes in response. It's an incredibly common training paradigm.

    And, the mentality carries over into the empty-hand training too - one guy punches and leaves it hanging out in the air.

    Certainly that was the sort of training I originally had, and everybody was doing it that way at the time. Along came the Dog Brothers, and the UFC, and we saw the concepts changing. Certainly I jumped on the band-wagon - my practice has changed radically as a result.
  4. raylawley is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/02/2009 8:35am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You must first summon your chi. It will protect you and make the technique work no matter what they throw. If you do not understand this, go to jail. Go directly to jail. Do not collect $200.
  5. Man_Among_Men is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/02/2009 8:55am


     Style: Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I definately understand that fights are impredictable, since I am a boxer, I have just gotten into filipino martial arts the last 3years or so and have found it interesting but it all seems too flashy to actually work

    a perfect example would be "the gaja series", wth is all of this and how would it ever work unless the guy is a total amateur. AND IF THE GUY WAS A TOTAL AMATEUR AND YOU COULD ACTUALLY APPLY IT, IT WOULD BE EXESSIVE FORCE TIMES A THOUSAND


    btw gaja series is somewhat like this:

    JAB CROSS attack...

    parry the jab

    parry cross while doing verticak gunting to the triceps with right hand, pulling back into a "cover" and grabbing the guys wrist

    then make an uppercut motion with your left hand in between the guys trapped right arm and his neck

    then grab his neck with your left hand, then tuck his rich arm in your armpit

    then grab also with your right hand on his right side of the neck slamming knees in his head

    then do a throw by turning and squatting while holding the head

    then drop knees on the head

    then low kick the back of the head




    wow... just wow


    this would only work against an unskilled teenager who just mastered the jabcross. he would now be in a wheelchair also



    i like fma but some stuff is just weird
  6. Kuma is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/02/2009 8:57am


     Style: blunt trauma

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Among_Men View Post
    I definately understand that fights are impredictable, since I am a boxer, I have just gotten into filipino martial arts the last 3years or so and have found it interesting but it all seems too flashy to actually work
    Yeah, that little nagging voice of doubt in your head?

    That's your skepticism kicking in. Your instinctive bullshit detector.

    Listen to that.

    If it smells like bullshit, it probably is. Either that, or a duck.
  7. Man_Among_Men is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/02/2009 9:00am


     Style: Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuma View Post
    Yeah, that little nagging voice of doubt in your head?
    exactly, the voice keeps saying, if the guy is stupid enough to keep throwing predictable patterns, I could just punch him in the liver and the head right
  8. Student is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/02/2009 9:53am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuma View Post
    Yeah, that little nagging voice of doubt in your head?

    That's your skepticism kicking in. Your instinctive bullshit detector.

    Listen to that.

    If it smells like bullshit, it probably is. Either that, or a duck.
    Ditto to what Kuma just pointed out. Fancy = Demo in just about every case I can think of. When adrenaline kicks in during a real fight fancy intricate moves go out the window even if you could pull some of them off in a controlled friendly atmosphere.
  9. Dsimon3387 is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/02/2009 10:21am

    Join us... or die
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You have to make a distinction. you are talking about, or it sounds like you are talking about modern FMA stuff which has this strategy. The older Kali stuff you go off line you are at the guys flank when you try to check the guy and... in teh Kali in the indonesian arts as well you move in at a triangle so you can, among other things follow the guy's retracting hand to his flank.

    IMO the biggest problem people have, and a problem that can easily be addressed by the older combat evolved fma stuff,m indonesian stuff ( I see thema s related) is that when a knife or jab is fast and real it does not stay out in front of the person. your body movement has to be good enough to follow it in and be at the opponent's flank so he cannnot hit you with his other hand, cut you with his other weapon, you don;t bump into his friend behind him, etc!

    IMO the more modern Arnis and escrima does not address this problem. it is what you appear to be talking about and instead of good body work that follows it tries to outspeed a boxer which will never work. Stay in front of a man with a weapon or two, or a boxer with fast hands you will get hit bet on it.
    This thread never was a high quality conversation - My friend vern Gilbert on the William Acquier thread.

    The fight in question having started over who owns which piece of rubble. Nicko1;2233174 On the Acquier Kim Fiasco slash thread.
  10. Man_Among_Men is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/02/2009 10:30am


     Style: Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dsimon3387 View Post
    You have to make a distinction. you are talking about, or it sounds like you are talking about modern FMA stuff which has this strategy. The older Kali stuff you go off line you are at the guys flank when you try to check the guy and... in teh Kali in the indonesian arts as well you move in at a triangle so you can, among other things follow the guy's retracting hand to his flank.

    IMO the biggest problem people have, and a problem that can easily be addressed by the older combat evolved fma stuff,m indonesian stuff ( I see thema s related) is that when a knife or jab is fast and real it does not stay out in front of the person. your body movement has to be good enough to follow it in and be at the opponent's flank so he cannnot hit you with his other hand, cut you with his other weapon, you don;t bump into his friend behind him, etc!

    IMO the more modern Arnis and escrima does not address this problem. it is what you appear to be talking about and instead of good body work that follows it tries to outspeed a boxer which will never work. Stay in front of a man with a weapon or two, or a boxer with fast hands you will get hit bet on it.
    i dont quite get what you mean. do you mean that the older kali systemsare more like silat where they angulate and use energy lines instead of pain compliance?
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