8/23/2010 9:37pm, #51
In the US defiantly it's hurt in Japan I would say no. They tend to instruct in the basics much better. Still though there are still great instructors in the US that teach great basics just they don't put out competitors or their good competitors end up at the better schools like Pedro's or the OTC.
This isn't a bad thing that is what should happen. The problem is that the local sensei doesn't get the credit just the bigger camp. So we are lead to believe that the big camps are producing the better players when its really the local instructors from all over the US. The big camps(I am using this very loosely) know who is producing the players and appreciate it. I feel like I am talking out my ass on this one trying to make a point without disparaging anyone.Judo is only gentle for the guy on top.
8/24/2010 6:09pm, #52
There were a lot of questions asked,and some assertions/assumptions made that are not quite true, or need addressing.
This is my day off, and I need to go out and finsish fixing an electric fence, so I'm not going to post a lot until I get back to work tomorrow afternoon.
1.) Judo was never intended to be the be all and end all martial art that some judoka and others seem to fantasize about.
2.) The best footnoted historical evidence I have seen suggests that Kano did not really want Judo to be in the Olympics. Kano was a big supporter of the Olympics (he was on the first Japanese Olympic committee!), but not necessarily of Judo being in the Olympics.
3.) The competition rules of Judo did not change much until the introduction of koka and yuko in the early seventies. Even when started in June of 1980, ippon was still at an acceptable level of control, speed, and force. If we went back to the rules as they were in say, 1970, I think that most folks would not be disappointmented.
4.) As far as I know, it has NEVER been required to remain standing to score ippon in Judo. Landing in a oseakomi has, as far as I know, always been OK. Sutemi waza, of course, require tori to not remain standing. Roll through ippons, as some have described, I am not sure about. They were considered worthy of ippon in the '80s when I started, granted that the other requirements for ippon (force, speed, control) were met.
5.) The whole sport vs martial art thing...Judo was never a martial art, it was/is a modern budo. The aim of Judo is to through physical training in attack and defense, in a relatively safe way to internalize the principles Seiroku zen'yo and Jita Kyoei and thus become a better person, and contribute to society.
6.) Kano himself thought that nage waza were more important to learn at first than katame waza and ne waza. He thought that an early focus on ne waza would stunt ones overall growth in both the physical and spiritual side of Judo. His recommended ratio to start out was 70% nage waza and 30% ne waza. Others who were contemporaries of Kano (Join Oda) trained more to50/50. So the emphasis in Judo has always been in throwing, not ne waza.
And the emphasis was on physical education, not pure fighting. If you can digest and accept that, then all woes about Judo losing "combat" effectiveness can be seen in proper context.
8/24/2010 9:22pm, #53
Thanks Ben, that helps a lot.
This is what I am focused on
"The aim of Judo is to through physical training in attack and defense, in a relatively safe way to internalize the principles Seiroku zen'yo and Jita Kyoei and thus become a better person, and contribute to society. "
This is what other martial arts need to learn from judo. How often do you see modern judoka uphold this?
8/24/2010 11:57pm, #54
First off, what is a martial art? Yeah, I know, whole 'nother thread that has probably been debated here already. It got debated on Rec.martial arts years ago.
It's usually Judo guys who get all stuck up and declare the wonders of Jita Kyoei.
Regarding judoka following the maxims, I can have more of an informed opinion.
I see judoka upholding the prime directives of Judo all the time, consciously or not.
Judo when done within the intended parameters encourages such behavior.
Now, go to an international training camp full of elite athletes, and you might think otherwise (I KNOW otherwise), and in some cases, people might be acting otherwise. But those guys and gals know what the game is, and all agree to play a certain way, risks considered. If 99% of those same athletes were doing Judo at a local dojo with kids or beginners, they would play another way.
Because in most cases, they started as kids, and were exposed to more "normal" Judo, and are conscious of how do adjust their behavior to the situation at hand.
Judo was designed with Jita Kyoei in mind, even if Kano spent years refining and explaining his philosophy. Why were the neck cranks/ leg locks/small joint attacks taken out of competitive Judo back in 1915 or so? Why no striking in Judo, even though striking was integral to Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu Ju Jutsu, and a strength of it, in which Kano was menkyo kaiden (at the tender age of 22)?
People sometimes bemoan the lack of practice of such techniques in Judo, but really, in terms of the overarching aims of Judo, to Kano at the time, it was necessary.
Hope that helps,
8/25/2010 5:02am, #55
I'm going to temper slightly Josh's and BKR's doom mongering lol. I agree with most of what they've written and their analysis of Judo's problems and their historical origins.
However, if you find good coaches and you approach Judo with the right mindset and you continue to challenger yourself by seeking out better partners and more knowledgeable coaches then you will learn alot and develop good Judo.
Good Judo isn't dead you just have to work hard to find it and get it for yourself, but that was always the case.
As for the international scene contest Judoka are still unbelievable skilled and they can throw people flat on the back with speed power and control and remain standing etc... They can apply stranglers, armlocks and hold downs with incredible skill and speed and do all the things that used to happen in the old days and they can do it whilst deailing with highly tailoured gi, very strong and ferocious grip fighting and almost no time at all in newaza.
Now yes they may not be Okano or Mifune, but there's a reason those people are the legends they are because they were, and in Okano's case are still, so truly exceptional and gifted its a bit like casting around modern classical musicians and deriding them because they aren't Mozart or Beethoven. Not that I think Josh or BKR are deriding elite athletes, but you see my point.
Judo does have issues with its contest side and the IJF has its flaws and there are things Judo needs to do to straighten itself out a little bit and become more balanced, but I see some positive steps being taken around me and I also think that the Judoforum is a much more powerful engine for change than people realise and that there are movements and murmurs that are starting to look to realign Judo and redress some of the imbalances that have developed in it.
8/25/2010 9:36am, #56
8/25/2010 9:38am, #57
Scott, having training at your school - albeit only for six months - I would say that it embodies the essence of these principles to the max, even if the terms differ.
8/25/2010 10:46am, #58
5.) The whole sport vs martial art thing...Judo was never a martial art, it was/is a modern budo.
8/25/2010 11:57am, #59
I'm asking the question for both. I want my school to get bigger, while maintaining these principles. I also would like to see other schools and martial arts pick up some of them, so as to raise the overall quality.
I want the bad schools to either go away, or get better. Hopefully this will keep the false ideas about martial arts to a minimum.
8/25/2010 1:09pm, #60
Just to put a summation to a my thoughts on all of this.
1. What can other MA learn?
Most Japanese MA tried to emulate Judo earlier with rank structure and organizational structure but had too many rogues that created their own way/paths/rank/techniques.
Judo at its heart has remained true to its core principles and the solidarity for the sport is global. Many MA do not have this just look at TKD and Karate.
2. What has the competition done to Judo?
It has keep it honest. While rules interpretations have caused some problems Judo is still Judo.
Just to clear up a point. When I am talking about controlled throws I am not necessarily talking about tori staying standing but being in a dominate or controlling position after the throw not upside down with uke on top.Judo is only gentle for the guy on top.