Posted On:8/20/2010 2:48am
Style: Aikido / FMA / Krotty
I've recently taken up Kali (JKD base). I hope you'll excuse me posting this here rather than the kali forum, but my query relates specifically to bong sau, so i figure the knowledge base will be here in CMA.
We've been doing some bong sau, as part of a chi sau/hubud drill, and I'm getting to the stage where I can do this without sticking my tongue out to concentrate. I'm having problems though, where there is a significant height difference between me and my partner.
If my partner is much shorter than me, their forward strike slips past my bong sau effortlesly. The bong sau almost guides the strike to my face. I can ease this by angling the bong sau upwards rather than keeping it in-line with the attack, but that blocks my view of my partner.
Its a major problem, because I am tall (circus tall), so most people are significantly shorter than me.
I'd like to get the hang of this, as my current skill set has nothing at this range. I usually try to keep opponents at long range, or as they pass that, close it down to grappling range immediately.
So if you have a moment, the questions are firstly... has anyone else had a similar problem, or am I being a spaz?
Secondly, any suggestions for fixing it?
Last edited by Ignorami; 8/20/2010 2:50am at .
Reason: pedantry is important
I'd like to leave this world like I came into it: Screaming, naked & covered in someone else's blood
Posted On:8/20/2010 3:27am
Style: Muay Thai (BJJ hiatus)
As an ex chunner, I want to troll you and espouse the uselessness of Bong Sau but I won't and am going to try and answer your question with a question; Aren't you supposed to be turning with your Bong Sau? That's how I remember learning it, so if the strike does slip past, you're out of the way anyway.
" The reason elite level MMAists don't fight with aikido is the same reason elite level swimmers don't swim with their lips." - Virus
" I shocked him with my skills on the ice becuase Wing Chun is great for hockey fighting." - 'Sifu' Milt Wallace
"Besides, as you might already know (from Virus, for example) - there's only 1 wing chun and it sucks big time" - Tonuzaba
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"That said, if he blocked my hip on a drop nage, I would extend my leg into a drop tai Otoshi and slam him so hard his parents would die." - MTripp
Posted On:8/20/2010 5:18am
Originally Posted by Asriel
I want to troll you and espouse the uselessness of Bong Sau
That's interesting, because initially this was going to be my first question. Is the bong sau of no use (even purely at this middle range)? I didn't ask it for fear of getting flamed as a n00b that blames the technique instead of his lack of skill. So does it suxx0rs, or is it useful?
Originally Posted by Asriel
Aren't you supposed to be turning with your Bong Sau? That's how I remember learning it
We certainly haven't yet. That may be because I am a coordinationtard, so we have been doing one thing at a time. Also, its only been used for chi sau/hubud exercise so far, not as a defence in itself. (cue flame)
If I do turn with it, it would be very similar to the uke nagashi movement we use at our aikido* class. I can pull that off against a spaz-puncher at longer range, but I don't see how I can deflect and turn quickly enough to be effective at this closer starting distance, or against someone good at punching.
Seems better to leave my feet where they are and use the bong sauing arm to just return the incoming punch with a punch of my own, trusting that by the time they both arrive at our respective heads that my punching arm is in the way enough to take some of the sting out of theirs?
Dilemma is, I'm a n00b and don't want to be judging the technique solely on how it compares to previous instruction, or on how badly my n00b skills perform it. On the other hand, I don't want to be training at something not fit for purpose.
I ask here before asking my instructor because I don't want to be that tool who on lesson 5 says to the chief "that's not how we do it at xxxxx"
Experienced advice greatly appreciated.
* Please note, our Aikido class is guilty of many of the things hated here but significantly less guilty than most I've seen, so please don't disregard this post as irrecoverably tainted.
Posted On:8/20/2010 5:37am
Style: Hung Gar, Choy Lay Fut
I think it has some use, i see Floyd Mayweather Jr do stuff like this pretty often:
Posted On:8/20/2010 5:56am
On the issue of whether it's useful, I hope the consensus is yes because I particularly enjoy the chi sau/hubud exercise. it's one of my favourite parts of class. Its an enjoyably rare occasion when my brain switches off to let my body work.
On the original issue of height though, it works ok in practice with someone of similar height but once they get significantly shorter, something about that angle is making my Bong Sau guide the punch right through to my head. I could move (or even bob and weave like that photo, but my arm is doing nothing constructive. If I get a minute I'll see if I can photoshop that boxing photo to make him taller and see what that looks like.
Posted On:8/20/2010 6:31am
Style: BJJ, Wing Chun
@ChenPengFi--That's not really a bong sau (though it does have some similarities). The contact point should be below the elbow, not above.
Asriel has the correct. You need to rotate your body w/ the bong sau. Also, your other hand (wu sau) should be backing up your bong sau to catch anything that slips past. So that if your bong sau fails, you still have an opportunity to block.
I'm not instructor...but that's the way I've been able to make it work (though I'm not very good at bong sau and don't really use it).
Posted On:8/20/2010 6:43am
In my experience, Bong Sau needs to be too precise to work under pressure.
However, if you would like to carry on experimenting with it you will need to turn with it and have your other hand behind it to cover and also to grab the opponents wrist for trapping.
I can't believe I'm having a chunning conversation... I must be on my period
Posted On:8/20/2010 6:53am
Style: Kettles (MA hiatus).
I don't rate the bong sau either but to keep it on topic how about using a tan sau instead? If the other person is striking upwards they have a harder time coming through that as you're angling down on them, plus you can trap over them with the tan if you're quick enough.
@ Asriel. Same here... I need a drink...
Posted On:8/20/2010 7:13am
You still in London dude? Beer O'Clock soon if you are!
Posted On:8/20/2010 7:18am
Style: Wing Chun
I'm guessing that who ever is punching will have to extend their arm to reach you? Couldn't you just step towards them pushing their arm upwards with you bong sau? Or you could try putting more energy in to pushing your bong sau forwards with you hip.
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