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  1. excludedmiddle is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/18/2010 5:47pm


     Style: BJJ (blue), Kempo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Half rant plus a question

    Until recently I've never really thought too highly of Capoeira as a martial art because, well let's face it, stylistically it just doesn't make any fighting sense whatsoever. However, lately I've come to have much more respect for Capoeira practitioners since they generally train 10 times harder and are often 10 times as athletic and in shape as your average TMAer. I would even bet on a fit Capoeirista over an average practitioner of a style which, while it seems to make fighting sense, isn't usually trained very hard or with too much aliveness (Kenpo or JJJ?). On top of this, having really grown up alongside Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, Capoeira guys have been known to test themselves in NHB competition for a long time. Once in a while they actually do well too. I believe Capoeira is an example that shows that while style may still be the number one thing (I'd still bet on a guy who has done 6 months of wrestling or BJJ over most Capoeiristas), almost as important is training with aliveness and intensity of training.

    So my question is: could other arts which seem to make even less fighting sense like, say, Aikido or Tai Chi, possibly do well if they tested themselves in NHB comps and actually got in shape as well? (Has this already been mulled over many times in other threads and I really need to lurk more still? If so, sorry.)
  2. Permalost is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/18/2010 6:08pm

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

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    I’ll bet that part of it is that out of shape people don’t get into capoeira as much in the first place. Take an out of shape desk jockey and show them how to do a handstand while kicking someone, and they’ll think “I can’t do this, and all these hot Brazilian girls are out of my league anyway”. Take the same person and show them how you can do an aikido or JJJ standing joint lock, and they might think “hey, I can master this even though I’m a doughy guy/gal; just look at Stephen Seagal”. Then, they become tricked into believing that some weak “internal” practice is a substitute for real solid exercise.

    You don’t have to wonder if those other arts could be good if they did full contact stuff- there’s full contact chun and judo-w/-wristlocks style aikido competitions. People who don’t prepare realistically are beaten by those who are, unless they can Hulk their way to victory (like a capoeistra might be able to do). A lot of the full contact TMA videos I see are in house against their training partners, which is good that they’re trying but the test carries a lot more weight against people from other schools that they don’t know. But really, it’s not generally accepted that their very occasional full contact fights is what makes capoeira good, so the comparison is a little off to begin with.

    Contact capoeira matches (not capo guys in vale tudo or MMA) look really goofy, because to keep it from turning into kickboxing they have to make it so that attacks must be from the ginga.
  3. Larus marinus is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/18/2010 6:28pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    On top of this, having really grown up alongside Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, Capoeira guys have been known to test themselves in NHB competition for a long time. Once in a while they actually do well too. I believe Capoeira is an example that shows that while style may still be the number one thing (I'd still bet on a guy who has done 6 months of wrestling or BJJ over most Capoeiristas), almost as important is training with aliveness and intensity of training.
    Have you ever seen the AXE Capoeira guys fighting MMA? They fuse Capoeira with BJJ (I believe) - and it actually seems to work. They seem to have produced several solid fighters.
  4. excludedmiddle is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/18/2010 6:53pm


     Style: BJJ (blue), Kempo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larus marinus View Post
    Have you ever seen the AXE Capoeira guys fighting MMA? They fuse Capoeira with BJJ (I believe) - and it actually seems to work. They seem to have produced several solid fighters.
    Oh yeah. And those guys actually look pretty good too. But their stand-up still looks like Kickboxing but with those crazy Capoeira kicks added in once in a while. Do you think the more full contact you do, the more a stand-up style will resemble Kickboxing or Muay Thai?
  5. excludedmiddle is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/18/2010 7:02pm


     Style: BJJ (blue), Kempo

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    Codos, I think your reply pretty much demolished my whole train of thought.
  6. Larus marinus is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/18/2010 7:07pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by excludedmiddle View Post
    Oh yeah. And those guys actually look pretty good too. But their stand-up still looks like Kickboxing but with those crazy Capoeira kicks added in once in a while. Do you think the more full contact you do, the more a stand-up style will resemble Kickboxing or Muay Thai?
    That does seem to be a common observation.

    There may be some obvious exceptions that I can't think of off-hand.

    Causes a lot of internet arguments about whether a guy representing <style> was actually using <style> because it didn't look like <style> when fighting full-contact and winning against a non-compliant opponent.

    btw, take a look at this - closest thing I've ever seen to 'alive' training in Aikido.

    YouTube- 覇天会主催 第2回 フルコンタクト合気道選手権大会1< 合>Aikido Hatenkai
    Last edited by Larus marinus; 8/18/2010 7:16pm at .
  7. alex is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/18/2010 7:45pm

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     Style: Muay Thai

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    Quote Originally Posted by excludedmiddle View Post
    Oh yeah. And those guys actually look pretty good too. But their stand-up still looks like Kickboxing but with those crazy Capoeira kicks added in once in a while. Do you think the more full contact you do, the more a stand-up style will resemble Kickboxing or Muay Thai?
    this.
  8. gregaquaman is online now
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    Posted On:
    8/19/2010 11:13am


     Style: mma /boxing/muai thai

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    Quote Originally Posted by excludedmiddle View Post
    Oh yeah. And those guys actually look pretty good too. But their stand-up still looks like Kickboxing but with those crazy Capoeira kicks added in once in a while. Do you think the more full contact you do, the more a stand-up style will resemble Kickboxing or Muay Thai?
    It is the full contact leg kicks. You just get chewed up if you move off the kickboxing stance and you cannot check.
    From there people logicly follow the kickboxing method.
    Or Thai as the case may be.
  9. Lonestar is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/19/2010 11:31am


     Style: TKD, Arnis, Catch

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    Quote Originally Posted by excludedmiddle View Post
    Oh yeah. And those guys actually look pretty good too. But their stand-up still looks like Kickboxing but with those crazy Capoeira kicks added in once in a while. Do you think the more full contact you do, the more a stand-up style will resemble Kickboxing or Muay Thai?
    I have been thinking about that a lot lately too. Making the transition from TKD to MMA has caused me to retrain the way I kick. TKD taught me a foot tag way of fighting whereas now I have to fight with Thai kicks. The Thai method has follow through to create power in a kick. TKD teaches that the sudden retraction of a strike creates power (http://tkdtutor.com/TOPICS/Technique...Preface-03.htm). So I now have some retraining to do, but at the same time I have new kicks in my arsenal. Rather than only throwing round kicks with the foot hitting the target I now have some middle range with kicking with the shins. But this new principle of follow through I now have applied to my TKD kicks. If I through a round kick to the head using the top of my foot and follow through (but no after spin) is it Thai or TKD?
  10. excludedmiddle is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/19/2010 12:18pm


     Style: BJJ (blue), Kempo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonestar View Post
    I have been thinking about that a lot lately too. Making the transition from TKD to MMA has caused me to retrain the way I kick. TKD taught me a foot tag way of fighting whereas now I have to fight with Thai kicks. The Thai method has follow through to create power in a kick. TKD teaches that the sudden retraction of a strike creates power (http://tkdtutor.com/TOPICS/Technique...Preface-03.htm). So I now have some retraining to do, but at the same time I have new kicks in my arsenal. Rather than only throwing round kicks with the foot hitting the target I now have some middle range with kicking with the shins. But this new principle of follow through I now have applied to my TKD kicks. If I through a round kick to the head using the top of my foot and follow through (but no after spin) is it Thai or TKD?
    I have a very similar problem. It sounds strange, but I have a severe punching problem. I can put power into my kicks pretty easily, but when going toe to toe and throwing punches, I lean too far back and they rarely connect. This is all due to sparring in kenpo, while wearing headgear and gloves, yet still going less than full contact with control to the face.

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