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  1. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    8/18/2010 9:43am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JudOWNED View Post
    Also possible that no one even cared about the shoulder joint because it was actually a pin. Fun Fact: Arm Triangle choke is considered a pin in Judo!*



    *(According to Kodokan Judo.)
    Kata Gatame IS a pin (osaekomi) in Judo. It can be modified to apply a strangle as well.

    Ude Garami CAN be applied mainly to the elbow joint, the upper arm (humerus), shoulder, or all three, depending on how it is done.

    I notice in BJJ that it is basically applied as a shoulder crank from the get go (at least by the guys I do BJJ with).

    The rules in Judo allow pressure on the shoulder, but if it turns into what I get done to me in BJJ, it's illegal.

    Practically speaking, though, in all my years of Judo I've only seen a penalty called in shiai twice for cranking the shoulder, and it was obvious both times that was the intent of tori.

    In the case at hand, it's a fine line between the pin (Tate Shiho Gatame) putting pressure on the shoulder(s) as a form of control for the pin, and actually cranking the shoulders to the point of injury. The 3 refs in this case didn't seem to have a problem with it.

    Ben

    ***EDIt****

    Just read Josh's excellent post regarding spirit of the rules vs letter. Great explanation!

    It's interesting, that in cases of Hansokumake (disqualification), I've seen this come into play a few times, and it was drilled into us during referee training.

    Example, I was at a Ladder Tournament (lower level national point shiai in Judo) in Dallas back in the '90s as a table worker and coach (Josh might have been there as well, don't remember).

    In the finals of the -95 kg division, an early practioner of BJJ got on a guys back and yanked his head back to try to get the "rear naked". I mean, he really cranked it back, and sank the choke, at which point the guy on bottom was screaming in pain. Matte was called, and a HUGE debate ensued over whether or not to disqualify the guy. Realize that there were multiple IJF A and B refs present who witnessed the whole thing, although they were not on the mat reffing at the time.

    The whole debate revolved around whether or not the guy INTENDED to INJURE his opponent. Now, by the letter of the rules, he should have been DQ'ed, no questions asked. If the refs on the mat thought he INTENDED to injure, then DQ. If not, then keikoku, which is a grave infraction worth half a point (wazari) to the other guy.

    In the end, I think they gave him keikoku, and he lost the match anyway.

    Ben
    Last edited by BKR; 8/18/2010 9:56am at .
  2. FourT6and2 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/20/2010 8:14am


     Style: Jujutsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I thought shoulder locks were legal in Judo? I was told by my instructor that attacks to the elbow and shoulder are legal. Attacks to smaller joints like the wrist are not. Is there some other distinction I'm missing?
  3. Res Judicata is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/20/2010 10:12am


     Style: Judo & BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Read BKR's explanation. Ude garami (including omoplata, etc.) is legal but it should be used to attack the elbow, not the shoulder. In the real world it makes little difference. Very subtle things can change whether ude garami is an elbow or shoulder attack.
  4. Ryno is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/20/2010 12:35pm


     Style: FMA, Jujutsu/Judo/SAMBO

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It depends on a player's flexiblility in the shoulder as well. Having done a lot of stickfighting for years, my shoulders' range of motion is extreme. Any bent arm lock almost always causes elbow pain for me well before I feel anything in the shoulder.
  5. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/20/2010 2:18pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    To confuse things even more, "locking" a joint is not the same as moving it beyond it's range of motion and dislocating it. Also, you can pressure joint, and as long as uke can move so as to relieve the pressure/pain, it is not illegal.

    I've used leg "lock" positions to maneuver uke in randori and shiai, as well as to entangle legs (niju garami, knows as "lockout" in BJJ". The lockout is OK in Judo until you actually apply enough pressure for it to become a submission. Same with the footlock when a guy is behind you with his legs wrapped around your waist.

    There is a wrist "lock" you can use to break uke's grip when he defends Juji Gatame. In BJJ, you could submit with the wrist lock (Kote Gaeshi), in Judo you have to let it go and just apply the Juji Gatame.

    In Judo, you can lock joints in the sense of immobilizing them, you are only allowed to dislocate (go beyond normal range of motion) the elbow joint.

    So if in doing Ude Garami (be it to using your arms or legs (Ashi Sankaku Garami/Omoplato)), if the pressure is applied primarily to the elbow,it's legal, if to the shoulder, it's not.

    The issue is in shiai for a referee to be able to tell exactly what is going on.

    Even more complicated, if I apply the technique primarily to uke's elbow, and as a part of his escape movement he put his arm in a position where the pressure is on his shoulder, it's HIS FAULT and I'm under no obligation to let him go.

    I would not count on all refs knowing that, though.

    Another example would be putting pressure on uke's jaw when he/she trys to escape a choke.

    If I'm applying a shime waza correctly, and uke by his/her escape actions puts my hand on his/her face/jaw, it is UKES fault, not mine, and no penalty is given. That is if the ref is any good. Again, I would not count on it.

    In BJJ of course, you can crank away on the face/jaw. It seems to be recognized as perhaps rude, but not illegal, and if you tap you "lose".

    Ben
  6. Res Judicata is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/20/2010 3:45pm


     Style: Judo & BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    And then there's the "is the biceps slicer legal?" debate. Answer seems to be yes if used to open the arms (like the wristlock discussed above) but no if used as a direct submission attack where uke cannot open his arms. Even though it's an elbow submission, it doesn't hyperextend the elbow. Good luck having the referee know that.

    Even the "face" rule isn't applied literally. If it were, you'd never be able to do juji-gatame, for example.
  7. FourT6and2 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/20/2010 4:06pm


     Style: Jujutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    To confuse things even more, "locking" a joint is not the same as moving it beyond it's range of motion and dislocating it. Also, you can pressure joint, and as long as uke can move so as to relieve the pressure/pain, it is not illegal.Ben
    So, if you can "pressure" a joint as long as uke can move so as to relieve the pressure/pain, then wrist/throws "locks" found in other arts like Aikido, jujutsu and etc. (such as nikyo, sankyo and kotegaeshi) are legal in Judo?

    Or is there a distinction made because those are all done to the wrist?

    Another example is when someone grabs your lapel. You can easily apply a painful wrist lock with your forearm and it wouldn't even look like anything. Uke would feel it alright, but a ref wouldn't be able to tell what was going on. I don't think I would ever do this since it's kind of "cheap" during a match. But is it legal?
  8. Res Judicata is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/23/2010 4:56pm


     Style: Judo & BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Basically, if the person can get out of it, it's not a lock as I understand the rule. But I'm not a referee.

    Lol at wristlocks being easy to apply. Did aikido for a few years. Damn near impossible to wristlock a moderately competent Judoka, especially without getting thrown in the process. While you have two hands on his wrist, he's going to have two hands on you -- probably with an almost unimpeded hikite. That's bad.
  9. Nefron is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/23/2010 5:36pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by FourT6and2 View Post
    Another example is when someone grabs your lapel. You can easily apply a painful wrist lock with your forearm and it wouldn't even look like anything. Uke would feel it alright, but a ref wouldn't be able to tell what was going on. I don't think I would ever do this since it's kind of "cheap" during a match. But is it legal?
    Heh, my JJ instructor told us how he got DQed for a standing wrist lock in a Judo tournament. Its perfectly legal under our rules.

    To get back on topic, does anyone have a video of that far arm hooking being done in a match other than this? It looks like a good surprise move. I could possibly have some success with my long legs and flexibility.
  10. FourT6and2 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/23/2010 5:46pm


     Style: Jujutsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Res Judicata View Post
    Basically, if the person can get out of it, it's not a lock as I understand the rule. But I'm not a referee.

    Lol at wristlocks being easy to apply. Did aikido for a few years. Damn near impossible to wristlock a moderately competent Judoka, especially without getting thrown in the process. While you have two hands on his wrist, he's going to have two hands on you -- probably with an almost unimpeded hikite. That's bad.
    I think you assume a wrist lock requires someone to use two hands to apply it. I'm not advocating the use of "Aikido" wrist locks during randori or a tournament. But while fighting for grip it's certainly possible to apply a nasty wrist lock. I've done it a few times, unintentionally, while fighting for grip. I've always been told any sort of technique applied to the wrist is illegal. So that's why I brought it up.
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