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  1. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    8/16/2010 10:39am

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Triangular footwork with longfist strikes

    I started uploading some videos to youtube, that focus on the things I liked but wasn't really able to teach as a kung fu instructor due to there being a somewhat set curriculum. This one is the result of trying to find ways to fit the long, extended fist strikes of choy li fut (and other styles) into sparring with an opponent. The angular ideas are drawn in part from the Dog Brothers material, specifically Kali Tudo volume one. The concept was that if unarmed FMA works, why is it not seen in the cage? Crafty's answer is that a lot of FMA stylists are missing certain understandings to make their art's techniques work, such as certain footwork elements. And they need to spar more without sticks. Anyway, the logic of unarmed FMA is that the motions of the stick are similar to the motions of the hand, and that you always have 2 sticks (your forearms). This idea appealed to me, because choy li fut has similar problems, and often seeks to smash opponents with the forearm. This stuff is the result of me playing around with these two concepts:

    YouTube- Triangular Footwork for Longfist Strikes
  2. Meex is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/19/2010 5:37am

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     Style: Tao Ga

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There's a few points I want to address,
    but I think I need to sleep before I go
    rambling on without any focus. . .
    I'll try to get to it in the morning.

    `~/
  3. nomamao is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/01/2010 9:10am


     Style: Hung Ga Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    1) That outside "triangle step" is one of the first things I teach when I'm training someone, but not so wide. I like that footwork. The only thing I don't understand is WHY do you then STEP OUT when you've closed the distance and cut off a lot of his strikes?

    2) From the little CLF that I dabbled in, as most hung gar guys will, there's always IIRC a relationship between the Sao Choi and the Gwa Choi (hanging fist), and I believe that relationship, if properly followed as I understand it, could stop your getting jabbed in the face as you attempt to land a Sao in the future, but that's just me. Also... I know it's called "longfist" but do the strikes always have to be "long?"

    3) keep at it as I think you're onto something.
  4. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    9/01/2010 1:26pm

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by nomamao View Post
    1) That outside "triangle step" is one of the first things I teach when I'm training someone, but not so wide. I like that footwork. The only thing I don't understand is WHY do you then STEP OUT when you've closed the distance and cut off a lot of his strikes?
    The stepping away part was just an example of how you might move away for sparring etc. Obviously you could also keep moving forward with other techniques, but I think it’s good to have a plan on backtracking if things don’t work out right, and that’s a safer way to do so. There’s lots of good followups, but I have a tendency to ramble on and start talking about a million other things so I wanted to just explain the basics of making the punches land.
    The end position of the body as well as the relative position and distance to your opponent puts you in a position that is very similar to a switch kick, and if you’ve attacked high with the punch, there may be a good opening to throw the shin into the leg or midsection. You could also use the opportunity to try to snatch a leg or maybe flank them, or follow up with a big punch. I figure after the strike lands, your background will suggest what you can do afterwards.


    2) From the little CLF that I dabbled in, as most hung gar guys will, there's always IIRC a relationship between the Sao Choi and the Gwa Choi (hanging fist), and I believe that relationship, if properly followed as I understand it, could stop your getting jabbed in the face as you attempt to land a Sao in the future, but that's just me. Also... I know it's called "longfist" but do the strikes always have to be "long?"
    The type of counter doesn’t have to be “long”; in fact I kinda like to use the straight leopard fist to the ribs in a similar way. But again, in this particular video I wanted to focus on one thing, and that was how to apply the extended arm punches against a person.
    Normally, the gwa/kwa goes before the sow/kup choi, but I have some problems with that. First of all, the gwa works best from a sideways stance with the hand down, then swings down against whatever it’s hitting (in a lot of forms, it’s in a sideways horse stance shuffling to the left or right). The reasons I don’t like this much are 1. realistically, it’s not easy to counter a jab in that way since you’re using a backhand circle to react to a straight line, and it’s not necessarily going to break their structure like everyone wants it to; 2. I prefer a modern fighting stance, ie both hands up, body fairly square, chin down, light on the feet; and gwa is not easily thrown from a square position. 3. Knocking someone’s arm down with my arm means that now my arm is down too, and dropping the lead hand invites a cross that I might not be able to deal with; 4. I feel that a strike to the face is a better setup to a powerful strike than a strike to the arm. Along the same lines, if I do a forceful downward smash to my opponent’s arm in an attempt to clear them, they are likely to anticipate a strike with my rear hand, and might even intuitively cover the high lines. There are several things that can follow gwa, but mostly they are with the back arm.
    One of the principles of fighting that I believe in is not giving your
    opponent any information that they can use. If my opponent made me feel flustered or angered or rushed or confused or in a lot of pain, I don’t want to let them know. I don’t want to telegraph anything because that’ll give them more info than I want them to have. I don’t really even want to volunteer the info about what my training background is or if I train at all. I don’t want them to know if I have some kind of injury or weakness to exploit (obviously in training I’ll let my partner know about stuff like that). Basically I want a poker face. Bridging with an opponent gives you split second clues about how they’ll move, but it does the same for them. Since I stopped formally studying kung fu, I’ve been moving away from the kung fu method of bridging to create openings, and instead just finding open lines and attacking through them without warning (systema has helped me find these lines and attack them while still keeping the poker face). I find that the single time counters fit this strategy better than trying to crash in with gwa.



    3) keep at it as I think you're onto something.
    Thanks, I started training with the other guy in that video on Fridays after work, and there's much experimenting with new ideas.

    EDIT: I'd still like to hear from Meex too; I'm sure he's got some insight that I don't.
  5. nomamao is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/01/2010 4:20pm


     Style: Hung Ga Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    well, to cover point 1, if you like to back out after the attack--I'd have to say that 3 steps back might be a little much. But, that's from my point of view. Too much momentum backward makes it very hard to launch an offense. That's my opinion. I'm a very firm believer in that if you close the distance, you should go to work. Otherwise, don't close the distance... But, yeah, all well and good.

    Point 2: I've used the Gwa not as a counter element, but as an attack. Yes, while it does go down, it does depend on the footwork and distance. I like to use the gwa from the outside much more than on the inside, but I've used them both. I've been known to "give" an opening to my ribs, so that I can come over top with a gwa/ sao combo. And, with the gwa, as I throw it, the elbow can usually be drawn down to cover the opening in no time at all.

    Much like the jab can hit or draw an opening, I use the gwa to do the same thing from a hands up more square stance. One can even use it to follow a jab with the same hand (very Hung Gar technique, or so I've seen)--using it to attack the head or neck with your forearm/fist and if unchecked it will find a way home; upon being checked, it will open a spot for either an overhand sao or a uppercut/hook to the body. I've used this in sparring and in competition before and it's one of the techniques that I've been able to say has worked more than not. Of course it's about distancing as well, but there was never any illusion about sideways stance in my camp, when I was gearing up for competition tourneys or leitai. (I actually had a ref tell me to stop kickboxing and use kungfu, once)

    As for 3... We'll see what others have to say, but I would like to see more of this kind of work on the forums for us kungfu heads to discuss.

    I'm not sure if you've watched or trained much Bak Sing CLF, but there's stuff on Youtube that should give you some ideas.
    Last edited by nomamao; 9/01/2010 5:02pm at .
  6. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    9/01/2010 5:22pm

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by nomamao View Post
    well, to cover point 1, if you like to back out after the attack--I'd have to say that 3 steps back might be a little much. But, that's from my point of view. Too much momentum backward makes it very hard to launch an offense. That's my opinion. I'm a very firm believer in that if you close the distance, you should go to work. Otherwise, don't close the distance... But, yeah, all well and good.
    Itís actually not three steps back; itís one step sideways/forward, the next one triangular backwards (there's probably a better way to describe that), and the next one is back with the right so that you end in the same stance. It's also moving to the side so your opponent has to adjust a little. The way I broke it down is more so that you start and end in relatively the same position, and so that you switch sides without crossing up your feet. I also believe in continuing forward momentum, but when two people decide to fight that way, something has to give and sometimes you have to know how to angle away.

    Point 2: I've used the Gwa not as a counter element, but as an attack. Much like the jab can hit or draw an opening, I use the gwa to do the same thing from a hands up more square stance. One can even use it to follow a jab with the same hand (very Hung Gar technique, or so I've seen)--using it to attack the head or neck with your forearm/fist and if unchecked it will find a way home; upon being checked, it will open a spot for either an overhand sao or a uppercut/hook to the body. I've used this in sparring and in competition before and it's one of the techniques that I've been able to say has worked more than not. Of course it's about distancing as well, but there's no illusions about sideways stance in my camp. we take a more conventional stance with hands up.
    Thereís a drill in systema that teaches how to circle around pressure on the arms, and it goes like this: start with your hands up and elbows down, and your partner will be in front of you with a focus mitt in one hand and nothing in the other. With their free hand, theyíll push down on the outside of your forearm, and you circle the arm around and then follow with a hook with the same hand (to the mitt). This can also be reversed for an inside push, which youíll circle around into an uppercut. Thereís also some other applications you could do (for example, circle around the head to a head and arm throw, or the other circle to lock their elbow if they continue through to grab you). Iíve taken to extending this from a touch drill into a visual one, and my habit has become to avoid any kind of downward strike to the arms by circling the arm around it and aiming a hook at the head/jaw while their hand goes down. With this in mind, I donít like to lead in with things that hit downward, because Iím wary of an opponent whoís planning on making me miss and tagging the left side of my face. The problem with the circling method is that when someone cues in on it, they can apply light pressure to get me to circle, then immediately strike at my face in a straight line with the same hand.
    From a more square stance, the lead hand is in a good position to do straight and inward motions (tsop choi, sow choi/jeung, kup choi) but not really backhand ones without adjusting the body first, and I think of gwa as a backhand motion so I donít really attack with them (backhand motions still have their uses though). I like gwa after pulling the hand across the centerline for whatever reason (for example, after parrying a cross), then using it to hit the face or to pull the lead hand down for all the fun clf pull-the-arm-down followups (sow choi to the head or back, jong to the ribs or the chin from underneath the arm, lok kiu to the elbow, etc).



    I'm not sure if you've watched or trained much Bak Sing CLF, but there's stuff on Youtube that should give you some ideas.
    I've never trained Bak Sing, but from what I hear it has less forms and a heavy emphasis on certain basics. Can't argue with that.
  7. nomamao is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/01/2010 7:46pm


     Style: Hung Ga Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yeah, in the systema drill they practice that drill as if a person is attacking/trapping their arm. What I'm talking about is totally different, and doesn't allow for that kind of counter.

    I'm not talking about playing the arm, but the body.
    Last edited by nomamao; 9/01/2010 7:52pm at .
  8. Meex is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/02/2010 2:04am

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     Style: Tao Ga

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I just remembered two things I wanted to say about the original post.

    1 - the problem with the fma footwork is that it is not properly trained so that sparring becomes second nature. All formal sparring becomes like a cat-fight with a lot of hard arm swings, and quick retreating back-steps. No defense, no parry and counter, nothing but attacks.

    The triangular footwork allows you to angle-off, re-orient, attack, angle-back, re-orient, attack, angle-off, re-orient, attack. No to retreat! My first guro told me that the ultimate footwork training will allow you to fight "next" to your opponent, while attacking and disarming him, while at the same time, being exactly where he cannot directly attack you.


    2 - To properly understand the concept of "longfist" you need proper footwork.

    Properly applied footwork can make longfist attacks short. A contradiction? No.
    Play with that idea for a bit. Think about using hands and feet independently. Play.

    `~/
  9. nomamao is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/02/2010 9:02am


     Style: Hung Ga Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yeah, I think I'm on the same page or close to what Meex is thinking as I also suggested that it doesn't have to be longfist.

    And, to be honest, I kinda like the "nothing but attacks" mentality...because the attacks can become your parries and your defense, if used properly. The footwork itself is attacking, as I've used it. FMA footwork may not be formally trained properly to apply to sparring, but... I think that it can be adopted into a system and used well.
  10. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    9/02/2010 9:21am

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by nomamao View Post
    The footwork itself is attacking, as I've used it. FMA footwork may not be formally trained properly to apply to sparring, but... I think that it can be adopted into a system and used well.
    That was the focus of the first kali tudo dvd by the Dog Brothers.
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