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  1. Sri Hanuman is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/05/2010 9:06am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Cheng Man Ching Taijiquan

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    *sigh*


    Quote Originally Posted by web site
    The Tai Chi Chuan we teach is the Peking (Beijing) 24 step, the most popular style in the world.
    The Beijing 24 is not a style. It's a form put together by the Beijing Sports Commission. Anyone who's familiar with Taijiquan on the level this guy claims should have already known that.

    Quote Originally Posted by web site
    The unique thing about the Alexander Tai Chi Foundation is that we do not confuse the practice of Tai-Chi-Chuan with other esoteric transmissions.
    WTF? Looks like a fancy non-statement statement (where something obscure but important sounding is stated, but makes no fucking sense.) What other esoteric transmissions are they talking about? I don't confuse my chicken-choking techniques with ancient esoteric transmissions either, but you don't see me posting about it on a school web site.

    Quote Originally Posted by web site
    We only teach genuine Tai-Chi-Chuan without the usual, confusing issues that cloud the real purpose of Tai-Chi-Chuan, i.e., the integration of the mind, body, and spirit.
    I'm calling bullshit here.
    1. From what I've seen in the videos, both instructor and the (seriously shitty) student demo, none of the above is true.

    2. Confising issues? Seriously? WTF... it's only confusing if you learn from books/dvds.

    3. If the real purpose of Taijiquan is integrating mind body and spirit, this guy has no idea what the **** he's talking about. Period.
    =================
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  2. Larus marinus is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/05/2010 12:56pm

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     Style: Nothing - yet

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    As this is no longer really about Christopher Allen at this point, I've started a new MABS thread concerning Alexander and his claims.

    Jon Alexander - Zen Shin Budo Kai / Zen Shin Budo Alliance, Cornwall, UK. - No BS MMA and Martial Arts
  3. Larus marinus is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/08/2010 1:54pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Just had a look at Mr. Allen's site.

    Looks like he's hired a new Tai Chi instructor.
    http://www.tringmartialarts.com/aboutjoe.asp
    vid, here (first one down)
    http://www.tringmartialarts.com/taichi.asp

    Any good? Whaddya reckon?
  4. Permalost is online now
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    Posted On:
    9/08/2010 4:51pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larus marinus View Post
    Just had a look at Mr. Allen's site.

    Looks like he's hired a new Tai Chi instructor.
    http://www.tringmartialarts.com/aboutjoe.asp
    vid, here (first one down)
    http://www.tringmartialarts.com/taichi.asp

    Any good? Whaddya reckon?
    I watched the two videos, and I've done a few years of tai chi. I'll mostly mention the 24 form, since I don't know the other one he's doing. There were some things that caught my eye in a bad way:
    -sometimes his lower and upper body are not connected. His body will continue after he already shifted all the way forward into a stance
    -he looks to the side during repulse monkey. To me, this and other things suggests that he may have learned this form from a health only tai chi place.
    -it seems that his torso stays totally upright throughout the form. This is good, except when you have to use your arms independently to accomplish this; then it's not so good. The body is supposed to crunch using the oblique muscles on certain movements (without crouching at the waist) and I'm not seeing that in the video.
    -His Snake Creeps Low gets its lowness from bending at the waist.
    -people critiquing tai chi often look at a sequence called Grasp the Sparrow's Tail for various technical elements. It's made up of several different parts: push, ward off, roll back and press. I don't see ward off at all, and there's no torso use in his roll back. This is a very common problem and it took me a long time to figure it out.
    -His Single Whip has different timing and little use of the legs.
    -Cloud Hands: I learned to step before switching hands, and he does it after; maybe just a different lineage. Also I learned to keep the higher hand angled slightly upward, not level, to keep relaxed structure and to be able to parry a strike. Horizontal cloud hands, in my experience, is another indicator of health-only tai chi.
    -his parry punch is different than what I learned; I learned right parry, left parry right punch, and his goes right parry, right parry left punch. I'll chalk it up to stylistic differences, lineages etc.

    I get the feeling that this guy learned health only tai chi and is now teaching as a martial tai chi instructor. For evaluating martial tai chi, it's good to have some video of tui shou or other 2 person work (the best evidence is from san shou or shuai jiao). I don't think it's too promising, since all that's posted is 2 videos for upcoming seminars, and the question "What is chi?" being answered with a traditional Chinese medicine answer.
  5. Sri Hanuman is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/08/2010 5:30pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Cheng Man Ching Taijiquan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Part of the new instructor's bio:
    http://www.tringmartialarts.com/aboutjoe.asp
    Quote Originally Posted by website
    How long have you been training?
    I have studied several martial arts over the last 38 years – following a fairly traditional pattern, judo, karate, aikido, and kung fu. It is said that there is no “best” martial art, it just depends how good the student is; it is also said there is no such thing as a bad student, only a bad teacher. I was lucky enough, when I returned from travelling round South East Asia in 1992, to find an excellent teacher. I studied with him until his death in 2006, and have continued studying T’ai chi ch’uan (and other Chinese martial arts and Qi gong) ever since. I have studied T’ai chi ch’uan for eighteen years and been teaching since 1997, including classes for local authorities (Haringey and Enfield), private companies (PMRS in St Albans)and adult education institutes (University of the 3rd Age).4
    I'm simply curious who the instructor is. Normally when you list someone as a good instructor, you tend to mention their name. Just an opinion.

    Now, on to the form. Since he is a Cheng Man Ching stylist, a school of Taijiquan that I too am a practitioner of, this for me is familiar material. (In case the question comes up, my teacher is Xuan Nguyen, residing in Arlington Heights, IL, currently retired. An article was written about her in the Daily Herald, Jan 16, 2005. I believe you can still google it. I have trained with her since 2006. Photos and pdf of the article available if for whatever reason required.)

    Again, on the web site we see some sort of ranking:
    http://www.tringmartialarts.com/aboutjoe.asp

    of 5th degree in Tai Chi Chuan.
    Since the art does not have standard ranking, I find this highly unusual.

    Next the form.
    Unfortunately the video seems segmented, so it is unclear if it is in sequential order. If it is, there is a slight problem which I will go into in a moment.

    First:
    http://www.tringmartialarts.com/taichi.asp
    Please take this Cheng Man Ching demonstration for reference.
    YouTube- Chen Manching's Yang Form

    at 0:11
    His Yu Pei Shih (preparation, where he places his foot outward) has him turning his body sideways, which I don't believe is the standard for the Cheng Man Ching form.

    Ref.
    Cheng Man-Ch'ing's Tai Chi Chuan, p. 32
    Cheng Man-Ch'ing's Advanced T'ai-Chi Form instructions, p.55-57
    Cheng Man-Ch'ing's Master Cheng's New Method of Taichi Ch'uan Self-Cultivation, p. 34-35
    Cheng Man-Ch'ing's T'ai-Chi Chuan, The Supreme Ultimate Exercise, p.12-13, 70

    From that onward to 0:15 there is a twisting of the upper body, which too is a bit unusual for a Cheng Man Ching stylist. Normally, in the CMC form, the core and the hands are supposed to be in movement as one, and the upper body as straight as possible (one of the distinguishing characteristics of the art, which places even more focus on straight back than the Yang style, which allows for some inclanation.)

    Next:
    0:38-1:00
    Grasping Bird's Tail Sequence, consisting of Peng (ward off,) Lu (roll back,) Ji (press/seal,) and An (push)
    Please compare those to that of Prof. Cheng Man Ching 0:25-0:36

    The instructor's Lu (rollback) doesn't seem to be performing the correct technique, rather waving the hand sideways. Further, his Ji simply has his hand pressing from below, while normally a CMC stylist (as clearly instructed by Prof. Cheng) will move both hands to the left prior to swinging them back forward in a pressing motion. (This was another one of the emphases that Prof. Cheng placed on his techniques, and is a distinguishing characteristic of his style. The momentum of one technique carries you into the next.)

    I further find his transition from Ji to An odd... no power behind it...
    Again, please compare to those of Prof. Cheng to see the difference for yourself.

    1:57 -Hands like Clouds technique- he is clearly leaning forward as he turns, a big no no in the CMC style. The hands move too independently from the body for what CMC would consider proper. Again, please compare to Prof. Cheng's movement. 3:40-4:30

    2:05
    The instructor is peforming the kicking out technique, followed by (2:17) needle at bottom of the sea, followed by fan out (2:22,) in turn followed by turn and strike with fist (2:26.)

    The problem here is twofold.
    1. These movements seem to be completely out of sequence with the CMC form.
    2. The Needle at the Bottom of the Sea and Turn and Strike are not part of Professor Cheng's style.

    Please note Prof. Cheng's sequence, following the Kick Out technique: 5:08-5:40

    On a general note, his hands are too far from the body, and too independent from body movement for an orthodox Cheng Man Ching stylist. There is also quite a bit of body jiggling uncharacteristic of CMC style.

    I would be curious to see him perform with a jian or a staff.
    My 2C for whatever they are worth.
    (I wonder if the video will suddenly disappear from the web site...)
    Last edited by Sri Hanuman; 9/08/2010 5:44pm at .
    =================
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  6. Sri Hanuman is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/08/2010 5:32pm

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     Style: Cheng Man Ching Taijiquan

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CodosDePiedra View Post
    I get the feeling that this guy learned health only tai chi and is now teaching as a martial tai chi instructor.

    We seem to concur on a number of things.
    This is probably the biggest one.
    =================
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  7. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/08/2010 5:42pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Now while we agree, you can't use Chen Man Ching's videos as reference. The problem occurs because, it is well known that he adjusted the form until he died. There are at least 7 (I'll find the links) versions that are "recognized?"

    While you make very good points, it could be one of the many variations. There are some very weird things that I think are made up. Still, without a full video it looks close to what I learned.

    As we said earlier appears to be Health related and looks like video Tai Chi.
  8. Sri Hanuman is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/08/2010 5:47pm

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     Style: Cheng Man Ching Taijiquan

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    Oh, nm.
    He lists his instructors at the bottom:
    http://www.tringmartialarts.com/aboutjoe.asp

    John Kells, William C Chen, Chu Gin Soon and Gia Fu Feng.
    The William C Chen style is based on that of Cheng Man Ching, and does have the Needle at Bottom of the Sea + Fan Out technique. Still not part of CMC style, but there it is.
    =================
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas View Post
    I used to **** guys like you in prison.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rock Ape View Post
    Dude I kill people for a fucking living.

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  9. Sri Hanuman is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/08/2010 5:48pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Cheng Man Ching Taijiquan

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    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    Now while we agree, you can't use Chen Man Ching's videos as reference. The problem occurs because, it is well known that he adjusted the form until he died. There are at least 7 (I'll find the links) versions that are "recognized?"
    Alas, point well taken.
    =================
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    I used to **** guys like you in prison.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rock Ape View Post
    Dude I kill people for a fucking living.

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  10. Permalost is online now
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    9/08/2010 5:51pm

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I tried to separate little stylistic things from things I would consider generally good tai chi. This is why I didn’t mention that his 24 step form is different than the one I know; I figured the sequences would be different here and there. I should mention that my tai chi instruction was Yang style, from the Doc Fai Wong lineage, with a very small amount of Chen style influence from master Asr.
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