2/27/2004 10:21am, #11
you guys spend too much time grabbing other guys nuts thru a pair of tight jeans.
2/27/2004 10:25am, #12
Once again I bring up what happened to Matsui, Yvel, and Otsuka in Pride. One shot to the groin dropped each of these fighters, sending them rolling on the ground in pain, unable to fight or even recover for a long period of time. These guys were wearing cups and Iím pretty sure they had a fair amount of adrenaline going.
Iím not saying that groin shots are guaranteed fight stoppers, but I take great exception when people go completely the other way and say they are useless. Groin strikes are just like any other strike, their effects can be varied. Not every punch to the face is going to land, or even if it does, knock someone out. That doesnít mean you should never punch someone there or attacking the face in general is useless.
2/27/2004 11:10am, #13
A high roundhouse kick is the most vunerable to a groin shot. The groin shot can be with a counter kick, or with a good fighter, a drop in and punch (back hand worked well for one little fast guy I sparred). Side and back kicks are much harder to penatrate this way. It is a matter of timing. If you are getting kicked in thr face, it's a little late to kick the groin. Kyokushin sparring tends to high kicks (and leg kicks, maybe they just like kicking?) so people in that system get used to it more than some others. Sometimes sparring we'd be wearing protection and use the groin as a target. Doing this make the turning and protecting motion rather automatic.
I'll get shot down for saying it but in the encounters I've had kicks worked just fine. I was talking with a n00b before class a couple weeks ago and he was telling me that he didn't believe in tournaments (I didn't bother telling him that you might not believe in GOING to tournaments...) and that on the street it was anything goes, bla bla bla. I told him that as a ma, it really hadn't been a issue of 'anything goes.' Usually confrontation is avoidable. If it is not, I found that a thrust kick to the chest works fine (side, mule, hook). The other fellow is knocked back several feet or onto his butt and has the time to reconsider his attack. In the few times I've done this only once did a guy keep wanting to fight, and though he put up his fists and talked like he wanted to fight, his body language (kept out of range and looked 'chicken') led me to the idea that it was over. It's like I told the guy in class. I'm standing there with my guard up waiting, the other guy, if he's not insane with drugs, anger, or adrenaline, gets to think, "I just got nailed and knocked on my butt with a kick to my chest and I didn't have a clue what happened. Do I really want to charge that guy who is standing there, looking calm and collected? Perhaps he knows another technique? Perhaps I'd better mellow out before he drops me on my head or breaks my nose/neck/shin/knee/ribs?"
This ofcourse built upon the idea that people who are trained martial artists aren't the one getting agro. As a rule, we work out and keep the fights to the mats. So the aggresive person tends to be lacking in skills. They aren't warming up with kicks to the heavy bag, pushups and crunches and stretching, then alternating hard and soft responses to attacking right cross drills, then palm heel lift to chin with leg sweep takedowns, then block side step/leg takedowns etc etc etc like we did yesterday. Or at least I sure hope they are not!
(edit) I just read Punisher's post (well stated as usual - why don't you get dumb like I do sometimes?) and want to add that the only time I ever used a groin kick, the fellow sat down and looked unhappy.
p.s. I am one of those delusional karate guys who think that my devastating techniques will actually kill or maim, that's why I've gone for a thrust to the chest. It doesn't break the ribs (and I've had mine separated and/or broken in class and I've broken and separated other guys sparring in class so I have an idea how that works), it doesn't maim or kill, and that's the point.
Last edited by patfromlogan; 2/27/2004 11:20am at ."Preparing mentally, the most important thing is, if you aren't doing it for the love of it, then don't do it." - Benny Urquidez
2/27/2004 11:22am, #14
anyone ever seen that kung fu movie where this guy wants to train and has a guy hit in the groin with a 2x4? I know a guy who can do that one. its pretty sick...
but in the same category its very rare that you will ever run across someone who can tAke that and be like "more!?"
groins shots are handy. groin shots work well on drunks, frat boys and bumms. kinda cheap, but if you really dont want a bar fight, an "irish kiss" tends to take the wind out of almost any aggressors' sails.
2/27/2004 11:56am, #15
Thanks for the post Punisher. Yeah, ulitamtely everything is case dependant and if your throwing "Punches (or technqiues) in bunches" it's going to be the cumulative effect that should give the person problems.
That being said I've seen instructors treat attacks to the groin as finishers. My concern with that in a pressure situation, if you're counting on the groin hit to put someone down and it doesn't, it's going to be a dangerous psychological blow to you and pontentialy throw your game way off. This is because it violates your mental model of the fight.
Are those pride fights currently available on tape? I'd love to see them. And thanks for the great article on the 5 Animals. It's a subtly different take than I'm used to and a very interesting read.
- MattStudent of Wan Yi Chuan Kung Fu,
Kali, & what ever works
Renaissance Martial Arts
2/27/2004 1:04pm, #16Are those pride fights currently available on tape?
All three strikes came early in the fight. The Yvel fight was ruled a no contest after Silva kicked him in the groin and he couldn't continue.
Jackson was disqualified after kneeing Matsui in the groin so hard that Matsui could not restart the fight, even after several other fights had gone on.
Otsuka was able to restart the fight later in the evening after a knee from Ninja.
2/27/2004 1:29pm, #17It's hard to fight when you're in a gazebo -- Mitch Hedberg
2/27/2004 1:56pm, #18
- Join Date
- Jul 2003
Just tagging it can be worse than a deep blow, since it eliminates the time to mentally prepare and the force to physically roll with (and a real hard blast can cause shock and be ignored).
If you do land a shot in the groin and the person doesn't flinch (or doesn't stop attacking), it's a pretty good indication that he has some serious volition to cause you damage. It might be enough to dissuade someone not entirely committed to harming you, if not its time to pull out the stops.
That and making the person prepare for the blow might be the effect you want by itself.
2/27/2004 2:00pm, #19
I hate being late to a thread, cause punisher and some others always make these great posts.
The only thing I could add is that groin strikes suck and no matter how much training you think you have, can often take the fight out of you the first time they land. Like most things in life, you can eathier shrug it off, or recover from the pain.
2/27/2004 2:36pm, #20
- Join Date
- Feb 2004
i dont know, maybe you guys are stuck in the seventies, but i dont see alot of people wearing pants so tight that you cant grab thier package. but if they are wearing pants that tight then thier pants only hold thier package in place making it a more viable target. you dont know what your talking about if you say that grabing either a. doesnt work or b. if nothing else as you said cause your opponent to move in a defensive position. either way it is to your advantage. we do alot of ground work and when the package is open you definetly can go for a grab. also a finger up the ass can cause quite the defensive jump from your opponent. both of these work.