excuse me for wandering in here but...
When I first saw the video I thought it was a slam. After reading comments from other people I can see how twisted definitions from a grappling perspective can be.
From a layman's perspective "slam" usually means excessive like when someone slams a door with much more force than required or when a basket ball player slams a ball into the net for the sake of displaying power. For me a body slam usually means the slammer uses the might of his upper torso to add more force to your already falling body to accelerate your decent.
From the video to me it looked like the thrower picked up tea just under the waist lifted him up high re-griped tea from the upper body and got his own body weight behind tea's decent and his feet lifted off the ground and fell completely on tea. It looked like a smooth wresting slam to me.
From what I remember double leg take downs are mostly pulling the legs towards the thrower, driving the throwers weight into the target and then driving the weight down. So for the double leg its pulling the targets legs out driving into then down on the target. In the video the thrower lifts tea straight up, regrips high then puts 100% of his weight down on tea with added momentum, throwers feet jerk off the ground and the thrower lands completely on tea. Even sounds like a slam.
I think the thrower used Judoist's formula but he did a slam which tea says is illegal.
"Now, a "slam" is a term used for when a throw is performed, but the thrower's feet leave the ground, and he (intentionally) lands on top of the "throwee". Hurts like hell." it looks exactly like this to me.
You should ask the referee what constitutes a slam.
It is hard to forgive your ignorance when you clearly don't know how to shoot a double leg. I need to dig up my ancient wrestling double picture. so what you describe is kinda like a Judo "double" (can't remember the Japanese). In a good wrestling takedown you are supposed to pull the legs out to the side so you don't end up in guard.
Last edited by WhiteShark; 8/16/2010 2:10pm at .
Thanks for the critique, I dont mean to pull the legs exactly into yourself ( i dont even think there is sufficient room for that. Your pictures are what I am thinking. I do remember in wrestling we were not concerned about being in anyone's guard though as it was not anything understood in the 80's.
Lets get back on topic and please advise about Tea's situation. Was he slammed or not and if not what do you call the move as it does not look like your pictures.
The double in Judo is usually called "morote gari" (two hand reap). Back when it was permitted, Judoka performed it in a number of ways -- including ways that are virtually identical to the "wrestling/bjj" picture you posted.
And I'm really not getting this slam/not a slam distinction. The throw in the OP's video was moderately hard, but nothing dangerous or remotely out of the ordinary.
By some of the definitions posted, nearly every throw transitioning directly into ne waza is a "slam", which is absurd. (e.g., Harai goshi to kesa gatame, or any makkikomi). Or some dynamic kinds of seoi nage, kata guruma, ura nage, etc
Lets try some examples:
Would all or some of these ura nage be "slams"? YouTube- ura nage
Or how about Muneta's beautiful sasae here -- his feet come off of the ground and he lands on his opponent.
YouTube- Sasae Tsurikomi Ashi by Muneta Yasuyuki
How about these osoto/harai makikkomi?
YouTube- Soto Makikomi
Again, from a non technical grappling view point I dont think any of your examples are slamming. They all look like good technical throws while Tea's opponent looked like he picked him up and slammed him right into the ground. It looked like stuff right out of the streets of Miami from when I was a kid.
I am not a grappler per se so a throw is a throw is a take down ect you will be unwillingly on the ground. My curiosity does find the different methods interesting and if you ground fighters were to tell Tea "suck it up and move on" fine, but the move does not look like anything other than a body slam while Res Judicata shows throws and White Shark shows take downs. From I understand most throws and take downs displace the person being thrown and he lands away from where he once stood. Tea appears to be slammed right where he was standing.
If we say the move is legitimate under the rules Tea was explained that's fine but what do you call the move if not a body slam?
No offense, but you don't know what you're talking about.
The thrower in the OP's video did a technically proficient pick up-style double leg takedown. He meant to do just that, including landing in side control. The mechanics are similar to te guruma (hand wheel) which probably looks like a "body slam" to you.
YouTube- Gripping Te Guruma
To me, it looks a bit like a te guruma —though I’m very far from an expert. In the jargon I seem to get exposed to—i.e. a case study in perception, not any kind of attempt to produce exact definitions or analyse rules!—I seem to hear two things described as “slams”:
Originally Posted by chainpunch
- The standard, illegal, BJJ slam that [COLOR=#cccccc]speedycerviche[/COLO"]speedycerviche - Member Profile - Bullshido described: Stand up in someone’s guard, pick them up with you, and slam them down. (Can also happen accidentally if someone heavy jumps guard on you and you lose your balance. I’ve done this. Don’t feel very guilty about it.)
- Given any throw, adding more power and impact than is necessary to achieve the takedown. (“Don’t go out there and slam each other”; “If this were a tournament or a streetfight I’d slam him down, but since we’re training partners I’ll take him down more carefully”.)
The impression I get is that “slam” as used colloquially is subjective and context-dependent. “Slam” as used in any ruleset that forbids it should hopefully be defined in said ruleset.
In Judo, "takedown", "slam" are not really used much. We throw, and either succeed or fail. In terms of competition, if you throw for a score, it's called a throw. Ippon is the goal, throwing opponent largely on back with considerable force, speed, and with control. In the "old days" that would mean flat on both shoulders in one fast motion very hard and very fast. Nowadays the standard is considerably downgraded. There would be no differentiation as to whether or not tori feet came off the ground or not, it is just a throw for a given score.
At one point in Judo rules, if you did a sutemi waza such as Tomoe Nage, hikkomi gaeishi, etc., and did not separate from uke, it was not given a score, but was a skillfull entry to ne waza. We would call those "takedowns".
But in general, to repeat, in Judo, the term "takedown" and "slam" are not traditionally used.
Takedown is more of a wrestling term, as is slam. In folkstyle wrestling, "takedowns" are legal, but "slams" are not. I've seen this at the local high school wrestling practices, and was told as long as the "thrower" has control generally most throws are OK in high school. I watched a few wrestling meets here, and the local boys were throwing guys for what would have been ippon in Judo, even ippon 20 or 30 years ago, and suffered no penalties.
Originally Posted by Res Judicata
No offense taken though I dont know what exactly I said is outlandish or technically incorrect, unless you think no way what happened to Tea could be considered a body slam by anyone who does know what they are talking about.
Thanks for the explanation to you and Petter. Not being a Judo guy I would not know what to call it other than "body slam". As far as a body slam goes I dont even know if there is an excessive amount because the whole purpose of the move is to soften up the target.
So from the examples I have seen so far throws and take downs are for the purpose or throwing and or to bring the fight to the ground. Slamming as I have always understood it maybe to bring the fight to the ground but more so to injure the person being slammed. The way I view Tea's take down it looks like a slam either intended or not and no video shown on this thread so far shows such a good example. Again I point to the detail of how he was lifted and thrown up, the thrower re grips and comes down right on top of Tea with no lateral movement and lots more momentum than any other video shown so far. If that is technical Judo I like it.