228412 Bullies, 4351 online  
  • Register
Our Sponsors:

Results 1 to 10 of 10
Sponsored Links Spacer Image
  1. shtupidhead is offline

    Featherweight

    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    95

    Posted On:
    8/14/2010 6:23am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: bjj / kempo jujitsu / mma

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    improving my north south

    lately I have been rolling with a rather athletic high level blue belt who has found (to his delight) that my north south escapes arn't nearly up to scratch. he can hold the position almost indefinately, and altho i can defend his submission attempts pretty easily it has made me aware its time to work on my north south game seriously.

    i'm currently a purple belt and i want to take my north south game to the next level from sucky to mediocre

    here's the basics of what i currently use both offensively and defencively from north south.

    control positions - arms in
    - elbows in armpits holding belt
    - head arm sprawl

    subs - kimura
    - armbar
    - reverse scarf shoulder crank
    - wing choke
    - foot lock

    transitions - to reverse scarf hold
    - to back control
    - to side control with near underhook

    defence (creating distance)
    - pushing away off hips (with reverse shimp)
    - bench press (with bridge)

    escapes - roll back to back control / roll around variation
    - roll around to half guard
    - roll around to triangle
    - bench press to inverted butterfly guard
    - bench press to inverted open guard


    If you have any advice or you think theres something that should be added please help.
  2. CoffeeFan is offline
    CoffeeFan's Avatar

    Certified Personal Trainer and Drinker of Coffee

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Sherwood, OR
    Posts
    2,180

    Posted On:
    8/14/2010 10:15am

    supporting member
     Style: SAMBO/BJJ/Judo and others

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    My personal opinion is that you need to focus more on your escapes and bottom NS sweeps if you get stuck in that position. Right now your relying on escapes that require a good deal of energy to create distance and may still leave you vulnerable (inverted guard). Try to pick up a couple of easier ones or work on not getting in NS.

    Offensively you have a good list of submissions and transitions, however I would include the NS choke and Darce in that list as well. Generally speaking you want to use NS as more a transition position as opposed to your main dominant position.
  3. wonko221 is offline

    Featherweight

    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    76

    Posted On:
    8/14/2010 10:38am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You're on the right track about attacking your way out of being held down. When you get stuck in a purely defensive mind-set, it's easy to just burn energy ineffectively.

    When you're held in north-south by someone who knows how to maintain it, it can be really hard to escape. What i've come to understand about being stuck in such a tough spot is that you don't need to escape it completely. That is to say, instead of focusing on what you can do to either submit your opponent or break into a dominant position, figure out how you can change your relationship so that you're still pinned, but the attacker no longer has the strong north-south on you. Trade positions for something better, even if it's not dominant.

    What makes your opponent's pin so strong? Typically, it's because they know how to keep some weight on you, but can "float" on you as you attempt to move them off. As long as your attacks/escapes are designed around pushing them and creating space, they can just ride your power, posting arms and legs and shifting weight to make you burn energy while they stay on you. Instead, hug em. Bring em in close and "tie" them to you. It's counter-intuitive, but it will allow you a bit more control over them.

    Once you've got them tied to you, look for available escapes/sweeps that can let you transition to a new position. For instance, i'll take an arm that i can reach, and i'll start working that arm/shoulder. I get that shoulder tied to me so that they can't float away, and then i'll wrap up the arm so it can't post, often by trapping it to my side and leveraging my body onto it. Now i roll up off my back, towards the controlled point, and shrimp out from the hold-down. I get my torso free, but i've rolled up their arm a bit, trapping them to the ground. No more floating to maintain the same pin on me!

    I end up still being pinned, but in something closer to a side-control. Added to this, i have their arm. They need to get a bit defensive to keep me from going for an attack against their trapped arm, and the powerful north-south form is broken.

    Reset your mind now. You are pinned, but out of the north-south, and you're aggressively working your way to freedom. Escape/attack from this position. Rinse and repeat until you're dominant.
  4. shtupidhead is offline

    Featherweight

    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    95

    Posted On:
    8/14/2010 11:27am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: bjj / kempo jujitsu / mma

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    thank guys

    ok so i think i have a rough idea on what i'll work on this week.

    - start rolling pinned from north south
    - try out the hugging to work for improved position (not 100% sure how that'll go, I'm thinking it would be used in combination with making space.)
    - start drilling some serious reps for my basic escapes
    - develop my north south choke (so i can both do it and defend it properly)
    - get my training partners to agressively hunt for north south so i can work on breaking down the position before its locked in
  5. chingythingy is offline

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    1,166

    Posted On:
    8/14/2010 12:12pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by shtupidhead View Post
    defence (creating distance)
    - pushing away off hips (with reverse shimp)
    - bench press (with bridge)
    IMO these two are the fundamentals to drill and expand your ability on. You know the fundamentals, but to apply them successfully against an athlete requires more skill and training it to a higher level.

    There are details involved. For example, which motion begins? Which motion is the chain reaction? If you do it in the wrong order you burn more energy. Do you pendulum side to side to use momentum as opposed to strength? IME the chain is push to hip swing, push to pendulum hip swing for the one movement. Drill it so you see the specific chain reaction. Ask your instructor for specifics. You may need to improve both your conditioning from there, including muscle specific memory and reaction as well as your technique.

    Same with the bench press. What starts the motion? What is the chain? There again it's specific. Hip motion bump TO arm bench. See where you are burning energy. Get the fundamentals better. Have you drilled the inverted guard stuff? Search for tornado rolls bjj on youtube, great drills for that stuff.

    The last thing to examine is your breathing. It's easy to hold your breath when you are executing these movements or just when you are pinned. That will cause you to gas more quickly. Ensure you are breathing well and getting that oxygen flow going throughout these motions.

    escapes - roll back to back control / roll around variation
    - roll around to half guard
    - roll around to triangle
    - bench press to inverted butterfly guard
    - bench press to inverted open guard

    If you have any advice or you think theres something that should be added please help.
    I think if you get your fundamental movement improved, you will see immediate improvement in your follow-through with those, although they need to be drilled as well. A good partner, perhaps your athletic blue belt friend would be ideal for this.

    IMO I don't think it's a matter of a new magic technique, but in improving the technical execution, ability, and training of the fundamentals behind the techniques you already know.

    My .02.
    Last edited by chingythingy; 8/14/2010 12:18pm at .
  6. wonko221 is offline

    Featherweight

    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    76

    Posted On:
    8/14/2010 3:55pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by shtupidhead View Post
    - try out the hugging to work for improved position (not 100% sure how that'll go, I'm thinking it would be used in combination with making space.)
    it's pretty counter-intuitive. We think we're being stronger by using our upper bodies. Because our upper body strength is really good at putting things at arms' distance, we attempt to create this space as part of our strategy. However, using upper-body strength against an opponent's power + gravity is not usually efficient.

    We can generate even more power by using our entire body for strength. Legs especially are much stronger than upper body power, if used properly. So, to really get some power against someone holding you down, figure out how to use your legs well.

    Do NOT create space. Instead, use your arms to bring the opponent to you. Hug em in, pin em to you. Then use your legs to reposition your body which, seeing as uke is affixed to you, will move them.

    From kami shiho gatame in particular, you'll use your legs to try to turn and shrimp out. As they resist, change directions. Get smooth at this, and you'll weaken their pin, allowing you to get out of the north-south, even if you're not working your way free completely, you at least end up in a new, easier position to work from.
  7. Uncle Skippy is offline

    See my tongue. SEE IT!

    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Out West, USA
    Posts
    2,337

    Posted On:
    8/14/2010 6:04pm

    Business Class Supporting Member
      Style: BJJ, MT, TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    On defense, create frames and then move yourself behind those frames.

    Cane Prevost's blog entry on the north-south game:

    http://caneprevost.wordpress.com/200...h-bottom-game/

    I know it seems fundamental, but if you are getting stuck there, then it is the fundamentals that will get you out.

    Like others said, start in that position as much as you can: flat on your back, legs flat, arms flat and outstretched (start from zero). I worked for months on my side-control bottom game like that.
  8. shtupidhead is offline

    Featherweight

    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    95

    Posted On:
    8/14/2010 8:06pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: bjj / kempo jujitsu / mma

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    thanks for the link uncle skippy i got a fair bit from it.

    - now have a clearer picture of the positional heighraki (or however the hell its spelled) .
    - had one of those "dur" moments when i saw the bit on framing and realised i havent really been using it.
    - will definately have to work on escaping to the single leg from north south.
  9. shtupidhead is offline

    Featherweight

    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    95

    Posted On:
    8/15/2010 3:31am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: bjj / kempo jujitsu / mma

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    ok back from training on day 1 of working on north south defence

    i taught the class today so i was able to drill out some of the basic escapes i wanted to work on. the roll to back pushing off the hips and moving away to make space, the escape to triangle from when the arms are in, the inverted butterfly sweep from the arm frame, and the single leg from the arm frame.

    we then did some positional sparring from north south simply resetting when we escaped or it moved too far away from where we were working.

    things i learnt today

    - pushing off the hips and walking away from when they have their elbows in your armpits is freaking hard work. however i noticed that if i managed to get one of the elbows off the floor it wasn't too hard to pummel in to the arms in position and from the arms in position it wasn't too hard to work to the arm frame position.

    - when the opponent tries to set up the north south position establishing wrist control opened up some interesting opportunities for escapes, definetly worth a further look.

    - armframe > arm in position > elbows in armpits (from a defence point of veiw)

    achieved both the escape to triangle, the inverted butterfly sweep several times

    also managed to get the north south choke to work a couple of times.

    did manage to use the hugging defence to work back to a side control position. still unsure wether or not thats worth going further with.
  10. Ryno is offline

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Seattle (Ballard), WA
    Posts
    1,776

    Posted On:
    8/18/2010 6:38pm


     Style: FMA, Jujutsu/Judo/SAMBO

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This may sound painfully obvious, but why not play with the blue belt in question, and get critiques from him as you experiment? With some tips from your coach, and some interactive feedback from your partner as to what seems to be working and what isn't, you should be making some progress. If I'm getting mauled by a particular training partner in one particular aspect of my game, I'll often do this, and it has been very helpful.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Powered by vBulletin™© contact@vbulletin.com vBulletin Solutions, Inc. 2011 All rights reserved.