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  1. PointyShinyBurn is offline
    PointyShinyBurn's Avatar

    Gnarly King of Half-Guard

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    Posted On:
    9/03/2010 8:34am

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by lefi View Post
    I'd think this is a problem for all grappling arts. Judo uses randori to avoid a lot of this, arguably making it a bit scarier for new joiners, not that there's anything wrong with that.
    Every Judo club I've seen waits a few weeks at least before sticking beginners in standing randori.
  2. Eddie Hardon is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    9/03/2010 8:36am


     Style: Trad Ju Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    [QUOTE=judoka_uk;2434923]
    Well if you're happy mixing up Gendai budo, which are demonstrably modern with Koryu Jujutsu then thats fine, but most people who have done any studying of the history of Japanese martial arts won't take what you have to say very seriously. [QUOTE]

    So what? {I say that with an implied Shrug - not with any sense of provocativeness. As you;re a Brit, you'll understand my phrasing.]

    When people start any MA, they will do so for a variety of reasons (fitness, self defence, looking for friendships, more). They don't usually have a body of knowledge on the 'legitimacy' of what they're being taught. They take on trust that the instructor is suitably qualified and that they (the student) won't that trust abused by fraud, initimidation, bullying etc.

    As the student progresses that may then ask critical questions of themselves, their instructors, and more. They may then go elsewhere if it suits them.

    The above Quotation suggests a certain snobbery on 'inferior arts'. This may be true but I would be certain that the new student wouldn't have a clue.

    Looking back in various publications, it's perfectly clear that Brits travelled to Japan (incl Okinawa) for THE SECRET and some had that trust abused in the way they were treated in the dojos. There will be a variety of reasons for this including WW2. So, why take the Japanese view so uncritically?

    Some people can fight. Some people can't, but can LEARN. Some people are Bullies. Some people want CONTROL. [You've seen that haven't you?]

    Sorry to digress so I'll try to bring to a close. If you've got a good instructor and a good environment that doesn't cost the shirt on your Back; gives fitness, confidence and a semblance of understanding of self defence, why worry?

    Few people will pull off flawless dojo technique outside when they're confronted or attacked with little warning. You certainly won't be thinking; am I effecting Koryu technique or the inferior Gendai. You'll probably WON'T be thinking, rather you'll likely be reacting: is my Groin protected, watch my nose etc.

    Hopefully you'll escape with little or no injury. But that would be a bonus.

    Apologies if this seems like a rant, it's not intentional at all. [Shrug your Shoulders and say to yourself "So what?"]

    :icon_comp
  3. madmonkey is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    9/03/2010 11:11am


     Style: Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    [quote=Eddie Hardon;2435196][QUOTE=judoka_uk;2434923]
    Well if you're happy mixing up Gendai budo, which are demonstrably modern with Koryu Jujutsu then thats fine, but most people who have done any studying of the history of Japanese martial arts won't take what you have to say very seriously.

    So what? {I say that with an implied Shrug - not with any sense of provocativeness. As you;re a Brit, you'll understand my phrasing.]

    When people start any MA, they will do so for a variety of reasons (fitness, self defence, looking for friendships, more). They don't usually have a body of knowledge on the 'legitimacy' of what they're being taught. They take on trust that the instructor is suitably qualified and that they (the student) won't that trust abused by fraud, initimidation, bullying etc.

    As the student progresses that may then ask critical questions of themselves, their instructors, and more. They may then go elsewhere if it suits them.

    The above Quotation suggests a certain snobbery on 'inferior arts'. This may be true but I would be certain that the new student wouldn't have a clue.

    Looking back in various publications, it's perfectly clear that Brits travelled to Japan (incl Okinawa) for THE SECRET and some had that trust abused in the way they were treated in the dojos. There will be a variety of reasons for this including WW2. So, why take the Japanese view so uncritically?

    Some people can fight. Some people can't, but can LEARN. Some people are Bullies. Some people want CONTROL. [You've seen that haven't you?]

    Sorry to digress so I'll try to bring to a close. If you've got a good instructor and a good environment that doesn't cost the shirt on your Back; gives fitness, confidence and a semblance of understanding of self defence, why worry?

    Few people will pull off flawless dojo technique outside when they're confronted or attacked with little warning. You certainly won't be thinking; am I effecting Koryu technique or the inferior Gendai. You'll probably WON'T be thinking, rather you'll likely be reacting: is my Groin protected, watch my nose etc.

    Hopefully you'll escape with little or no injury. But that would be a bonus.

    Apologies if this seems like a rant, it's not intentional at all. [Shrug your Shoulders and say to yourself "So what?"]

    :icon_comp
    I don't think he was intending to say that Koryu arts are better as he has stated several times that Judo is a very good art and he does have a 1st dan in it. He is simple being more specialist and specific in the term "traditional Japanese arts" and in this respect he is correct. I was generalising in my use of the term which is what most non Japanese Martial artists do.
  4. KO'd N DOA is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    9/03/2010 11:19am


     Style: Judo Sandbagger

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    TJF got its start from German - japanese martial arts training that was given to police, civilians during ww2. A german named Matthew moved to Australia, and was a judoka and a jitsu guy as primary styles. One of his first students Brian, had moved to Australia from the UK and then after a number of years training moved back to the UK.

    Once home he went about to various schools to see the caliber of Jiu Jitsu (sic), to train with...saw what they did and started his own schools. One of his students Peter, went to university, and developed a business model and codified the training. Unfortunately, Brian and Pete have both passed away, and there have been break aways from the style but still credit elements in the system and the trainers who taught them.

    WWII German Police training to the Jitsu club designed by university students for university students in 2010. Things were bound to change.
    Last edited by KO'd N DOA; 9/03/2010 11:50am at .
  5. Petter is offline

    12th level logic wielder

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    Posted On:
    9/03/2010 4:11pm


     Style: BJJ, judo, rapier

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    Judo has lots of kicking and punching ever been on the receiving end of a white belt trying to do de ashi barai with their shin?
    I don’t do a lot of de ashi barai, but if you mistook some of my woeful attempts at hiza guruma for savate’s coup de pied bas, I couldn’t blame you.
    [ petterhaggholm.net | blog | essays ]
    [ self defence: general thoughts | bjj: “don’t go to the ground”? ]
    “The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.”
  6. sahduk is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    9/05/2010 8:48pm


     Style: Muay thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I kind of miss doing jitsu. I was also with the tjf for 3 years :)
  7. JudoA is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    9/06/2010 3:03am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by sahduk View Post
    I kind of miss doing jitsu. I was also with the tjf for 3 years :)
    You're better off without it. From reading some old threads in the ghost town that is planetjitsu, not only does the training introduce a lot of bad habits and give you a false sense of security, you're very, very likely to get an injury that will be with you the rest of your life. Things like BJJ are much easier on the body (yet better for fitness) and better for self-defense purposes too.
  8. sahduk is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/06/2010 7:51am


     Style: Muay thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JudoA View Post
    You're better off without it. From reading some old threads in the ghost town that is planetjitsu, not only does the training introduce a lot of bad habits and give you a false sense of security, you're very, very likely to get an injury that will be with you the rest of your life. Things like BJJ are much easier on the body (yet better for fitness) and better for self-defence purposes too.
    You have a point there! I actually noticed some of my bad habits when I took up muay thai after I left the TJF. Such as the punch......the first time I ussed the punch bags in my gym I instinctively went in with a straight orthodox punch and really hurt my arm. Also the way I was my stance didnt really hold up during my sparring sessions either. Also my foot work felt very stiff since I was always taught to move as less as possible.

    But overall Ju-jitsu was still amazing to learn, and sooo many of the techniques I learnt are still useful :D
  9. 22lazy is offline

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    Nov 2011
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    Posted On:
    11/15/2011 7:30am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: jujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I am a member of TJF. I think a lot of these comments are unfair. Whilst a lot of them are valid criticisms, you have to take them into context.

    Firstly, if you went to a club and got to take part in a 'circle' you should realise this was a beginners' circle so the attacks were going to be telegraphed and not the best attack. You have to walk before you can run, etc. A lot of people on this forum are martial arts enthusiasts and have done another martial art for years. A beginner's circle or whatever excercise is a nice start for someone that has never done martial arts before.

    Thirdly, things about useless techniques, yes there are some techniques that would be useless for most people. But then most people admit most of the moves after green belt are not your weapons of choice for real life. They are just done mostly for show so that people still have something to learn. Also, not every throw is useful for every person. Due to height, weight etc you wouldn't feel comfortable using every technique. You have to learn it just so you can show it to someone else. I am quite sure that's the same in Judo and BJJ as well.

    Everything about the Randori I would say is spot on. I learnt more in 4 judo lessons and the ten minutes of ground fighting in another jujitsu style I did over the summer at the end of each lesson than I ever have at TJF. Their randori is quite pathetic.

    The style has been criticized for advertizing progressive resistance training and not delivering. They do introduce it because I've seen it. Although it is quite rare for them to do it and I personally think they introduce it wayyyyy too late. They introduce it at blue belt, but for some people this is 4 or 5 years of training, and it's fighting against someone who is trained in boxing going at what to me looked like 60% power, up to about 80% if they could handle it. Also at higher grades in circles, they snap their punches and quickly bring them back into their guard and throw one on the opposite hand if you don't get a technique on fast enough and they will resist to make you look stupid.

    I think there is a simple explanation for this, and I don't see it as an excuse. It is of course pure speculation but I'd say it's down to it being a SUPER large organization that takes pride in its social side. My suspicion is that they don't do much resistance training to keep girls - because the clubs that attract and keep the most girls are known to have more dedicated male members as well.

    However you can still learn some cool effective moves, but you will need to carefully think about what works for you, and I would recommend you do a real striking art so that when inevitably in a fight something doesn't go the exact way you want it you can deal with it.

    To summarise: YES randori at jitsu is terrible. NO resistance training is not non-existant, it's just introduced wayyyy too late. And NO it's not useless, it's just very slow so as long as you are either have the patience of a Shaolin monk or take up another striking art to supplement it will help you become very capable of defending yourself.
    Last edited by 22lazy; 11/15/2011 7:36am at .
  10. PointyShinyBurn is offline
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    Gnarly King of Half-Guard

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    Posted On:
    11/15/2011 7:40am

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Not to sound like a broken record, but if you're actually interested in fighting rather than going to the pub then all your post means is that, as long as boxing, MT, Judo etc. etc. exist then there's no reason to do TJF.

    The thing about 'useless technique' is not that some of the techniques are useless for individuals, but that some of them are useless completely because TJF's drift from randori has led to them being performed wrongly. Also, lots of them come from Aikido or Shotokan-one-steps and have never been any good.

    The 'circle' would be infinitely more productively performed as a progressive, paired exercise with realistic defence from strikes emphasised first and the imaginary idea that you're going to throw off the jab discarded. That would allow people to build up real skill. The reason V's, circles and all that other **** are popular is that they make you look like an action hero as you take down a swarm of assailants.

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