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  1. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Bonners Ferry, Idaho
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    Posted On:
    9/02/2010 11:53pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have to chuckle, I had been avoiding tieing down the arm in BJJ practice because I wasn't sure how it would be received. After all, it's such a big pinning thing in Judo. I started small and did it while in a guy's full guard, used it to pass, and didn't get any objections so I branched out to half guard.

    Now I read that Omega uses it, so I have to laugh at myself for being so worried at first.

    Ben
  2. DKJr is online now
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    Fasten your seat belts, and prepare for lift off

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    Richmond, VA
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    Posted On:
    9/02/2010 11:55pm

    supporting member
     Style: Combat Cuddling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Here is the description from my training blog of one of my favorite half guard passes.

    Half guard pass The "Bear Hug"
    From half guard top, back out looking to get an arm around their midsection, back down their body getting your head on their chest in the middle. Sprawl legs down, heavy with your hips. Hip switch or outside leg pushes inside while you switch and pull the other leg out. Then replace it with the leg formally trapped in half, pressure down with your chest, run your hips toward them turning their knees so their hips face away from you, this should squish them down. Also if they push your head down, swim your head around. Back out let them sit up, wrap up around their body under their ribs. Move them in the direction of their trapped leg. Pass like before or to the other side.
  3. Blue Negation is offline

    Woke up in the mortuary

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    Aug 2006
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    Posted On:
    9/03/2010 1:21am


     Style: Judo, Sub wrestling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Ne waza is the stuff you do to get to the finishing technique, which in groundwork, is a katame waza.
    I look at it as: Ne waza is the stuff that results in the finishing technique. Bit of a difference.

    Most of BJJ is positioning. Escapes, reversals, passes. The reason that this is so is because it was found to be so, rather than prescribed to be so. The most important part of newaza was shown to not be katamewaza, but the transitions and movements between which enable and result in katamewaza.

    As I was trying to point out, the "ippon" is not decided when the tate shiho gatame is 25 seconds old. It is decided when the *sweep* is executed - the rest, whatever katamewaza you end in, just naturally follows. Given that, it seems very reasonable to decide that these movements (and not just sweeps, though they're a useful example) should be categorized and labelled.
    Other than that, I'm not sure who you are arguing with here? I think I'm in basic agreement that for teaching/learning purposes, some sort of naming scheme for reversals/rollovers/sweeps is helpful.
    Heh, no argument on this forum. Not in terms of the action, anyway - a laid-out proposal/argument, yes.
    Kashiwazaki has some of his labeled "Obi Tori Gaeshi 1,2,3 in "Fighting Judo", I think (shamefully out of print!), but I have not seen that book in a long time.
    I have extensively studied Kashiwazaki's sweeps, especially what competition footage I have been able to find and his video instructional. His sweep strategy, especially off of the belt grip, is excellent. I suspect they're called "obi tori gaeshi" due to the similarity with the throw (a hikkomi gaeshi variant/old name?).

    ====

    My favorite half guard pass, gi or no-gi:
    --Do they have the underhook? If so, try to shimmy their elbow down to kill its power for a second - try to end with it pinned to their side. Use an overhook for this if necessary, but watch the sweep to the outside. It's okay if they keep a weak underhook, but not a real one. Better still if you have the underhook, but not necessary.
    --Keep your free leg splayed out for base. Keep it low and tight to prevent them from easily switching their inside leg to a butterfly hook or a full guard recovery. Be ready to bring it in to block such an attempt, figure-4-ing it with your trapped leg if necessary.
    --Pressure, using shoulder pressure to keep them from to buck up into you if they still have a weak underhook. Flatten them out.
    --Your arm on the side of your free leg stops shoulder pressuring and goes over the head. Your trapped leg pulls back towards you a bit. Switch your hips, free leg coming in so that knee is pressed against their hip at the joint but the knee is bent so the foot is pointing out and providing a source of pressure for you (important, or you'll get bridge-reversed). Your hips are in his armpit, so between them and the knee you have a whole side of his body locked out. You're facing towards their far hip. Your rib cage is now providing pressure to keep his head flat. Try to keep it tight so he can't sneak the arm in. With your arm on the side of your trapped leg, monitor his arm nearest your trapped leg - if he gets (or has) an underhook he might use it to try to get back onto his side.
    **If he is lazy with the arm trying to underhook you, secure a kimura. Threaten it regardless.
    --With the arm on the side of the free leg, which is now on the "far" side of his head, get your elbow tight to the mat. Make sure to keep pressure on him so he is flat on both shoulders. Pull back a bit with your arm and your trapped leg to C-shape his spine a bit (only works if he is on both shoulders, is worse on him if he's trying the lockdown)
    --Start walking your trapped foot up to his butt and getting your knee pointing to the ceiling. Heel-to-toe. Small motions which are hard to stop. When your knee is mostly pointing up, your topside/free-side hand can stop threatening the kimura and monitoring/trapping his far arm and instead can push at his far-side knee. As you push, try to pull your trapped foot free. If it comes out easily, that's fine - turn your hips down to face him and secure side control while immediately working to isolate the far arm. If he catches the ankle on the way out, turn all the way through, get the far underhook and pull up on the near arm, and pop your hips into underhook kesa gatame. If you go into the position, your ankle will naturally come out.
    --If it doesn't, I like to brace on the far knee (just holding it in place) while I switch my hip to yank the leg out. I go from facing towards his hip to facing ~45deg upwards, in a reverse kesa gatame. (balance ball exercises help here) Make sure to push off of your feet a bit so he can't bridge into you and reverse you. Work from reverse kesa gatame. Be ready to secure the kimura or transition to mount or even back control if he tries to turn up into you or onto his knees, which is a common response.
    Last edited by Blue Negation; 9/03/2010 1:30am at .
  4. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    9/03/2010 3:52pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Negation View Post
    I look at it as: Ne waza is the stuff that results in the finishing technique. Bit of a difference.

    Most of BJJ is positioning. Escapes, reversals, passes. The reason that this is so is because it was found to be so, rather than prescribed to be so. The most important part of newaza was shown to not be katamewaza, but the transitions and movements between which enable and result in katamewaza.
    I guess I'm not being clear. Of course how you get to a finishing technique is very important. It's just in Judo, Kano chose not to name/classify (as far as we know) all the in between movements, but focus on the finishing technique. Throwing techniques are really no different. For example, as important as tai sabaki is in Judo, the classification of it is simple and I've never seen a systematic way of teaching them put out by the Kodokan. I have my own method of teaching it, and it is integrated with learning various throwing techniques. I do something similar in ne waza, and when I started taking BJJ, it was interesting to not that a similar approach was used by the instructor.

    Same with all the various entries to throws. I've had high ranking Japanese teachers show me 8-10 variations for entries to Uchi Mata, all depending on relative grip, posture, size of the judoka and movement direction(s). Even if they all had descriptive names (which would be nearly impossible to do), it would still be specifically for Uchi Mata, and all the other throws would have to...anyway, hopefully you see what I mean.

    In throwing, the closest thing I've seen to classifying variations on "how to get there" is in Daigo Sensei book, where he lists variations as Soni Ichi, Sono Ni, (principle 1,2, etc). I found that tremendously helpful.

    Maybe someday someone will do that for ne waza as well (in Judo).

    As I was trying to point out, the "ippon" is not decided when the tate shiho gatame is 25 seconds old. It is decided when the *sweep* is executed - the rest, whatever katamewaza you end in, just naturally follows. Given that, it seems very reasonable to decide that these movements (and not just sweeps, though they're a useful example) should be categorized and labelled.
    From a BJJ reference, that is correct, but not from a Judo point of view. This is simply a difference between the two arts. BJJ has labels for some of the entries. Judo has a few, but they are not really emphasized. It would be nice if Judo would do more in terms of naming transitional movements, but Judo is basically internally consistent.

    I have extensively studied Kashiwazaki's sweeps, especially what competition footage I have been able to find and his video instructional. His sweep strategy, especially off of the belt grip, is excellent. I suspect they're called "obi tori gaeshi" due to the similarity with the throw (a hikkomi gaeshi variant/old name?).
    Obi Tori Gaeshi means "Belt Grab/attack reversal", and is a literal description of how the techniques work. Obi Tori Gaeshi is essentially a form of Hikkomi Gaeshi, which means pulling/lifting reversal. Obi Tori Gaeshi is an informal or "dojo" name. Both can be done from the ground or a standing position. In older rule sets, if there was no separation between between the bodies of uke and tori, then they were not score-able as a throw, but were skillful entries to ne waza.
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