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  1. Lu Tze is offline

    BJJ might make you a better ground fighter, but Judo will make you a better dancer.

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    Posted On:
    9/01/2010 5:54pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Look, it's just easier. **** the purists.

    "Hey coach, can you show me that pendulum sweep from guard again?"

    "Hey coach, can you show me that, um one where, um so you're on your back right... and they're like in your legs. Right, no wait, I got it. They're like in your legs and you sorta hook this with your arm and... no wait. Um, yeah anyway that one. You know the one, Yeah... So like you hook this and then you like... that one, yeah? No? Ah **** it."
    Last edited by Lu Tze; 9/01/2010 6:00pm at .
  2. CoffeeFan is offline
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    Certified Personal Trainer and Drinker of Coffee

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    Posted On:
    9/01/2010 6:04pm

    supporting member
     Style: SAMBO/BJJ/Judo and others

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    My favorite way of passing the half guard is to grab the person's foot and start to pull it towards me. Since I'm a SAMBO guy primarily they immediately freak out, push their foot away from me, and give me enough room to pass.

    I also utilize the first video garb pass quite a bit, however I prefer to hold them down with a farside kimura lock rather than putting pressure on their head. I find it gets them worrying about the safety of their arm while I'm taking steps to pass their legs.
  3. Petter is offline

    12th level logic wielder

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    Posted On:
    9/01/2010 6:46pm


     Style: BJJ, judo, rapier

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    I agree. One thing that has been frustrating for me teaching Judo is the lack of standardized vocabulary for ne waza. Students do get frustrated in trying to remember things for testing purposes. It may be an western mind thing that needs to categorize and have names? Or maybe the intuitive/immersion method of learning in Japanese martial arts, at least.
    On the other hand, judo’s nomenclature for throws is the most rigid and systematic of any I have ever heard of in martial arts, with not just standard names for umpteen throws, but I gather a sort of principles-based naming scheme—tewaza, ashiwaza, …I’m sure you know much more about this than I do. (Don’t get me wrong here; I think it’s great.) So, I can hardly agree that it’s the “western mind” trying to categorise and have names—judo people do it already, just not for newaza! Which is rather odd, really, considering how lovingly they categorised and classified the other part of the game.
    [ petterhaggholm.net | blog | essays ]
    [ self defence: general thoughts | bjj: “don’t go to the ground”? ]
    “The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.”
  4. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    9/02/2010 12:32pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    I agree to, don't let CK or Hanon know but I actually use some BJJ terminology in my teaching - guard, half guard, guard sweeps etc...

    I had a particularly silly conversation with another JF member where he refused to accept the need to actually give these techniques and situations names.

    As you say students need some additionaly memory tools beyond just watching the technique, especially as I teach mostly late teen and adult beginners they need names much more than kids to anchor techniques and lessons etc...

    It just makes newaza teaching simpler.
    LOL, yes, that particular person seems to be pretty rigid in his thinking regarding naming things. I suppose his (very fine) point is that if it's not "standard" nomenclature everywhere, then it won't work, as those backwards European judoka who don't know what BJJ is won't understand.

    Yourself excepted, of course!

    Ben
  5. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    9/02/2010 12:55pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Petter View Post
    On the other hand, judo’s nomenclature for throws is the most rigid and systematic of any I have ever heard of in martial arts, with not just standard names for umpteen throws, but I gather a sort of principles-based naming scheme—tewaza, ashiwaza, …I’m sure you know much more about this than I do. (Don’t get me wrong here; I think it’s great.) So, I can hardly agree that it’s the “western mind” trying to categorise and have names—judo people do it already, just not for newaza! Which is rather odd, really, considering how lovingly they categorised and classified the other part of the game.
    That's an interesting point, however, the katame waza in Judo do all have names, based on principles more or less. Katame waza being the oseakomi, shime, and kansetsu waza, done either standing or on the ground.

    Judo is consistent between throwing and katame waza in it's naming practices, there are just a lot more throws in Judo than katame waza. Both are principle based, as you suggest.

    What Judo does not do, or I should say Kano did not do, is name the movements one uses to do a final technique. For example, you can do De Ashi Barai, the first throw of the first kyo of the Gokyo no Waza, moving in any direction, taking advantage of multiple mistakes uke makes in his movment pattern, either induced by tori or made naturally by uke. None of those have names, but end up in De Ashi Barai, considered a "finishing" technique.

    The same applies when applying katame waza. How you get to the final technique isn't named.

    Ne waza is what you do in between the techniques, all the postures, and sequences of movement in groundwork, done until the final lock, choke, or pin is applied, the "finishing" technique.

    So Judo is basically internally consistent between naming nage waza and katame waza.

    The founders of BJJ chose to name the movements in between katame waza, I'm guessing because that is what they specialized in, and made it easier to teach/remember the movements.

    Personally, I don't mind using BJJ terms to describe the basic "entries" to different ne waza techniques. I think it would be good if the Kodokan could come up with some of it's own terms, however, I don't think that will happen anytime soon. But even BJJ does not have names for everything, and probably won't ever, as it just gets too cumbersome to name variations of scissor sweeps etc. The important thing is to understand the principle of the sweep, then use that principle as needed.

    Ben
  6. PointyShinyBurn is offline
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    Gnarly King of Half-Guard

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    Posted On:
    9/02/2010 5:30pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    LOL, yes, that particular person seems to be pretty rigid in his thinking regarding naming things. I suppose his (very fine) point is that if it's not "standard" nomenclature everywhere, then it won't work, as those backwards European judoka who don't know what BJJ is won't understand.
    As opposed to his chosen naming scheme, which is to leave it nameless so that no one understands.
  7. Blue Negation is offline

    Woke up in the mortuary

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    Posted On:
    9/02/2010 5:52pm


     Style: Judo, Sub wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Newaza is much more than katamewaza, which is what bothers me about the judoforum thread in question. Here's a bit of why:

    You can perform an elevator sweep and end up in tate shiho gatame, yoko shiho gatame, or kesa gatame, depending on how the movement is performed and how uke reacts (both during the action of the sweep and after they are already over).

    You can perform a scissor sweep and end up in a few different positions.


    To look at a scissor sweep into tate shiho gatame and look at an elevator sweep into tate shiho gatame and pronounce them both as "tate shiho gatame" is to miss the fact that the two actions are completely different. The most important element of the movement was not the osaekomi, which is very much worth noting. The finishing position should not be determined until the sweep is almost over, because if you have a preconceived pin it might turn out to be the wrong one for the situation and you could be reversed or caught back in guard.

    The important element was *how* the action was performed. There is as much or more difference between an elevator sweep and a scissor sweep as there is between seoi nage and o goshi.

    One (hypothetical poster on JF...) can state that there is no need to categorize newaza movements based on principle, and they may even be right. After all, practically half the throws in Judo are "hip tosses" to wrestlers, no need to further categorize, right? They're not missing out on anything. Just like sweeps are all "rollovers".
  8. King Sleepless is offline
    King Sleepless's Avatar

    I am a living legend!

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    Posted On:
    9/02/2010 9:57pm

    supporting member
     Style: Tatsumaki Senpuu Kyaku

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    My favorite half-guard pass is posturing up to knee on belly, shooting said knee over to the opposite side when person is starting to try to relieve pressure, then go into 4-corners side control. You'll easily slip out of a half-guard, but you're also risking getting swept pretty easily. It must be done quickly and smoothly to work.

    Otherwise, the thing that coffeefan said, I use that too... he taught that one to me. Ha. But even if they aren't threatened by the leg thing, they still give you enough room to slip through.
  9. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    9/02/2010 11:36pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn View Post
    As opposed to his chosen naming scheme, which is to leave it nameless so that no one understands.
    LOL, well, I managed to become fairly good at groundwork without ever learning names for most ne waza entries, but, as a teacher, I think having some sort of basic systematic nomenclature would make it easier to teach and learn basics, at least.

    Ben
  10. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    9/02/2010 11:42pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Negation View Post
    Newaza is much more than katamewaza, which is what bothers me about the judoforum thread in question. Here's a bit of why:

    You can perform an elevator sweep and end up in tate shiho gatame, yoko shiho gatame, or kesa gatame, depending on how the movement is performed and how uke reacts (both during the action of the sweep and after they are already over).

    You can perform a scissor sweep and end up in a few different positions.


    To look at a scissor sweep into tate shiho gatame and look at an elevator sweep into tate shiho gatame and pronounce them both as "tate shiho gatame" is to miss the fact that the two actions are completely different. The most important element of the movement was not the osaekomi, which is very much worth noting. The finishing position should not be determined until the sweep is almost over, because if you have a preconceived pin it might turn out to be the wrong one for the situation and you could be reversed or caught back in guard.

    The important element was *how* the action was performed. There is as much or more difference between an elevator sweep and a scissor sweep as there is between seoi nage and o goshi.

    One (hypothetical poster on JF...) can state that there is no need to categorize newaza movements based on principle, and they may even be right. After all, practically half the throws in Judo are "hip tosses" to wrestlers, no need to further categorize, right? They're not missing out on anything. Just like sweeps are all "rollovers".
    Ne waza is the stuff you do to get to the finishing technique, which in groundwork, is a katame waza.

    Other than that, I'm not sure who you are arguing with here? I think I'm in basic agreement that for teaching/learning purposes, some sort of naming scheme for reversals/rollovers/sweeps is helpful.

    Kashiwazaki has some of his labeled "Obi Tori Gaeshi 1,2,3 in "Fighting Judo", I think (shamefully out of print!), but I have not seen that book in a long time.

    Ben
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