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  1. WhiteShark is offline
    WhiteShark's Avatar

    1% Shark is better than you.

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    Posted On:
    8/12/2010 12:55pm

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: BJJ/Shidokan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    What is the deal with the guy in the yellow vest who shows up late and starts screaming?
  2. Ming Loyalist is offline
    Ming Loyalist's Avatar

    solves problems with violence

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    Posted On:
    8/12/2010 2:22pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo, Hung Family Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    major lawsuit time. those security guards will lose their jobs for sure, and rightly so.
    "Face punches are an essential character building part of a martial art. You don't truly love your children unless you allow them to get punched in the face." - chi-conspiricy
    "When I was a little boy, I had a sailor suit, but it didn't mean I was in the Navy." - Mtripp on the subject of a 5 year old karate black belt
    "Without actual qualifications to be a Zen teacher, your instructor is just another roundeye raping Asian culture for a buck." - Errant108
    "Seriously, who gives a **** what you or Errant think? You're Asian males, everyone just ignores you, unless you're in a krotty movie." - new2bjj
  3. Hertzyscowicz is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    8/12/2010 2:29pm


     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    From the video description, I got the impression that the guy who shot this knew ahead of time that the guy being choked out was deaf, and I think at least some non-deaf people had figured out that the guy was deaf. So, I'm scratching my head as to why nobody stepped up and said "Hey, take it easy, the guy's deaf, he didn't hear the alarm."

    Apparently, it isn't enough for the alarm to go off for the mall security to apprehend a suspected shoplifter, but what about the person who set off the alarm walking off, ignoring the security guys telling them to stop? And before anyone flames me, I understand that the security people were going way overboard even if it had been a genuine shoplifter.
  4. gregaquaman is online now
    gregaquaman's Avatar

    Senior Member

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    Arlie Beach
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    Posted On:
    8/12/2010 2:48pm


     Style: mma /boxing/muai thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    unfortunatly you are allowed to ignore security guards if you havent stolen anything.

    Yes it shits me too.
    It is all about finds commiting which basicly means as a member of the public you have to see the offence to make an arrest.

    This also means that 99% of security loss prevention make arrests that are doodgy
  5. wikidbounce is offline

    Registered Member

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    Feb 2008
    Location
    Australia
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    Posted On:
    8/12/2010 8:08pm


     Style: Sticks & Jits & Fritz

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I was under the impression that you can not legally detain someone against their will, that would be for the police to take care of.

    From back when I was working in Retail it was policy not to follow anyone once they left the store, the video surveliance was given to the police to follow up.
  6. mike321 is offline

    Senior Member

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    Sep 2007
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    California
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    Posted On:
    8/12/2010 8:20pm


     Style: kenpo, Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by gregaquaman View Post
    unfortunatly you are allowed to ignore security guards if you havent stolen anything.

    Yes it shits me too.
    It is all about finds commiting which basicly means as a member of the public you have to see the offence to make an arrest.

    This also means that 99% of security loss prevention make arrests that are doodgy
    I think we are fortunate that generally civilians need to witness a crime to make an arrest. It seems like the common sense position. Only sworn officers should detain people on a precautionary basis, and then under a proper legal framework. Also, I think it is a good first job for potential future LEOs. They get some experience with the law as a civilian, learn to handle themselves without weapons, and if you screw up you probably won't go on to be a sworn officer. When I worked retail, the loss prevention crew (shoplift catchers) had to witness selection of merchandise by the suspect, constant surveillance while in the store to make sure they didn't put it down, and the suspect had to leave the store I believe this is slightly more than the law required but avoided lawsuits.
  7. W. Rabbit is offline
    W. Rabbit's Avatar

    insight combined with intel, fuse, and dynamite

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    Posted On:
    8/12/2010 8:44pm

    supporting member
     Style: (Hung Ga+BJJ+MT+JKD) ^ Qi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This happened in Hollywood, CA and it involved the disabled, so that's what I call a sticky situation.

    Shopkeepers (and their security) enjoy citizen's arrest/shopkeepers privilege in CA and as long as certain rules are followed they can actually be immune from criminal or civil liability.

    One of those requirements involves whether force is lethal or nonlethal. Another of those requirements is that someone's civil rights not be violated during the arrest...

    http://www.security-guard-training.n...rity-guard.htm

    http://www.bsis.ca.gov/forms_pubs/poa.pdf
  8. W. Rabbit is offline
    W. Rabbit's Avatar

    insight combined with intel, fuse, and dynamite

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    Posted On:
    8/12/2010 8:59pm

    supporting member
     Style: (Hung Ga+BJJ+MT+JKD) ^ Qi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by wikidbounce View Post
    I was under the impression that you can not legally detain someone against their will, that would be for the police to take care of.

    From back when I was working in Retail it was policy not to follow anyone once they left the store, the video surveliance was given to the police to follow up.
    This depends on the jurisdiction and store policy. Many US states have laws allowing store security staff to detain and arrest suspects, whether or not the storekeeper/staff are going to be criminally or civilly liable will depend on what the local statutes say.

    In CA, especially in good old Hollywood, the security guards tends to be licensed and well trained because the stores are all high end merchandise.

    Those "BID Patrol" guys that show up are not even active duty police, they are off duty/retired PD working as armed security for the Hollywood Entertainment District.

    http://americancityandcounty.com/sec...ity_community/
  9. mike321 is offline

    Senior Member

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    California
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    Posted On:
    8/12/2010 11:00pm


     Style: kenpo, Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Rabbit,

    Thanks for the links, good info in there on "merchant's privilege" I am guessing those stupid alarms are considered reasonable suspicion. Too bad, the clerks often leave the tags on. I guess this will come down to whether use of force is reasonable here.
  10. W. Rabbit is offline
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    insight combined with intel, fuse, and dynamite

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    Posted On:
    8/12/2010 11:43pm

    supporting member
     Style: (Hung Ga+BJJ+MT+JKD) ^ Qi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think it will come down to whether or not the store security can actually prove he stole something. They better have been damn sure before he left the store (and be able to prove it) or else they could indeed be found liable in CA for something..false arrest, assault, or a civil lawsuit against the store.

    Hmm. Deaf people are protected by the ADA, so it could (theoretically) be a federal criminal violation to tackle a deaf person simply because they don't respond to the alarm or verbal warnings...when the issue is AT WORST shoplifting from Forever 21...I'll have to follow this one. Thankfully, this video has already gone viral.

    http://www.ada.gov/cguide.htm

    ADA Title III: Public Accommodations
    Title III covers businesses and nonprofit service providers that are public accommodations, privately operated entities offering certain types of courses and examinations, privately operated transportation, and commercial facilities. Public accommodations are private entities who own, lease, lease to, or operate facilities such as restaurants, retail stores, hotels, movie theaters, private schools, convention centers, doctors' offices, homeless shelters, transportation depots, zoos, funeral homes, day care centers, and recreation facilities including sports stadiums and fitness clubs. Transportation services provided by private entities are also covered by title III.


    Public accommodations must comply with basic nondiscrimination requirements that prohibit exclusion, segregation, and unequal treatment. They also must comply with specific requirements related to architectural standards for new and altered buildings; reasonable modifications to policies, practices, and procedures; effective communication with people with hearing, vision, or speech disabilities; and other access requirements. Additionally, public accommodations must remove barriers in existing buildings where it is easy to do so without much difficulty or expense, given the public accommodation's resources.
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