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  1. aznraven is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/13/2010 5:21am


     Style: ShinKyokushin/Shitoryu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Zendokan View Post
    About the hardness of the punches and the warnings about too hard contact, wel that depended from the type of karateka that were on the mat.
    - two Shotokan karateka on the mat and one was going hard and the other not, there would be a warning.
    - two Shotokan karateka on the mat, both were going hard -> no warnings
    - when it was a Kyokushin karateka vs a Shotokan karateka, it depended from the intensity of the Shotokan Karateka: if he did point sparring, the Kyokushinka got warnings, if he went hard, no warnings for both.
    QFT.

    In a tournament held early this month, a Okinawan Goju club came and did point sparring, Very upright stance, kicks looked somewhat Kyokushin but lacking and he trained pullback.

    He got silver, against earlier rounds he kicks hard and pissed opponents off so they went hard and very little fouls were given, so he kept winning mostly by kicks followed up with a jab.

    Finals was against a guy who simply played it safe with counter reverse punches to the body and the Goju guy from Malaysia fouled and lost by fouls. Coach went screaming to the head judge from Australia who simply ignored him.
  2. aiyer is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/13/2010 7:46am


     Style: Muay Thai, Savate

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zendokan View Post
    HARD

    The problem with these types of competition is that they are open events, but the judges are biased towards JMA practiseners. (talking from my experience).

    So when I wore my TKD dobok, the Shotokan Karateka punched hard and didn't get a warning, when I punched hard I got a warning.
    So I started to wear my old training karate gi (plain white) and the problems of warning stopped, because the judges tought that I was a karateka.

    About the hardness of the punches and the warnings about too hard contact, wel that depended from the type of karateka that were on the mat.
    - two Shotokan karateka on the mat and one was going hard and the other not, there would be a warning.
    - two Shotokan karateka on the mat, both were going hard -> no warnings
    - when it was a Kyokushin karateka vs a Shotokan karateka, it depended from the intensity of the Shotokan Karateka: if he did point sparring, the Kyokushinka got warnings, if he went hard, no warnings for both.
    A lot of it also depends on the judges. The WKF rules say that attacks to the face must be done with control. The problem is that the interpretation of what is control, is up to the judge. And while locally most judges have the same interpretation, internationally there is quite a bit of difference.
    You have judges for whome control means that you are only allowed to tap your opponent, so called skin touch. (USA for example)
    On the other spectrum you have judges who see control as something more like, as long as you don't break his nose, it's okay.
    In Belgium, Netherlands... control is: face:don't break his nose, body: no limit
    I've been, in point sparring, knocked out by a kick to the head and my opponent still got the point (well three points). Entering the open competition at 16 was not my best idea.
  3. aznraven is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/13/2010 9:08am


     Style: ShinKyokushin/Shitoryu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by aiyer View Post
    A lot of it also depends on the judges. The WKF rules say that attacks to the face must be done with control. The problem is that the interpretation of what is control, is up to the judge. And while locally most judges have the same interpretation, internationally there is quite a bit of difference.
    You have judges for whome control means that you are only allowed to tap your opponent, so called skin touch. (USA for example)
    On the other spectrum you have judges who see control as something more like, as long as you don't break his nose, it's okay.
    In Belgium, Netherlands... control is: face:don't break his nose, body: no limit
    I've been, in point sparring, knocked out by a kick to the head and my opponent still got the point (well three points). Entering the open competition at 16 was not my best idea.
    Sadly the judges in Singapore are closer to the US skin touch. That's why I don't join local tournaments anymore, all my last 5 tournaments were international/regional.
  4. WhiteShark is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/13/2010 9:32am

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: BJJ/Shidokan

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Anyone implying that this guy can fight or hit hard based on THIS training/"fighting" video is insane. You fight how you train. I had olympic trials quality TKD guys come in and train with me in knockdown karate. They got crushed for about a month until they got the hang of punching and having to actually make space. At that point the natural ability that allowed them to compete at TKD at that level helped them get pretty good at knockdown karate too. There is nothing in the videos I've seen that makes me think this guy could hang with a real fighter at all. Maybe after some cross training but not based on what I've seen.
  5. MrGalt is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/13/2010 11:49am


     Style: Seidokaikan

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Speaking as a point-to-knockdown switcher, those bad habits you learn in light touch krotty detrained me at least to the point where I started out as a much worse fighter than someone in my same physical condition with no training would have been. My body mechanics were garbage. I had a decade and a half of experience in throwing techniques that had zero weight and structure behind them because all that mattered was speed and "snap."

    Seeing somebody who is good at point and in good shape and saying, "Man, he'd be awesome if he just didn't hold back" is wrong. It's pretty close to the old fallacy of believing expertise can be general rather than specific.
  6. Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/13/2010 3:28pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Savate (LBF/SD/LC) - BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    WhiteShark, MrGalt, you are both right that at his level it's primairly (99.9999% of the time) controlled tag playing. The reason is that all the top competitors come from Shotokan, Shotokai and a little bit or Shito-Ryu.
    All these karate styles that look and feel the same.
    There you only need speed and snap to win, in fact the skill levels are almost so identical that trying to put power in a punch will make you lose. You would need to come closer to your opponent and a powerful punch can be a fraction slower than an 'only speed' punch.

    Their body mechanics are specially designed for making the first contact, after that they wouldn't even know what to do. So indeed a fighter that trained in a continious hard-contact style would destroy them, but he would never get the first point. And sadly that's the objective of their competitions.



    On the ammy circuit, here on mainland Europe + eastblock Europe, it's a different story because of two reasons:
    1) It's an Open tournement: so you will see Kickboxers, Muay Thaiers, Knockdown Karateka, Kung-Fu fighters and so on enter the tournements
    They are at a big disadvantage in sport karate tournements
    2) Almost all judges are Shotokan Karateka or Shotokai Karateka, so expect some biased ruling.

    Almost all the fights except the finals (what a surprise) are Shotokanka/Shotokaika against another style, so you can be sure that no punch is controlled.
    The other styles aren't that fast with their fists and the Shotokanka don't get any fouls against themselfs for playing 'rough'.
    Now if the fight wouldn't be stopped after first contact, every Shotokanka would be destroyed by their opponents, but alas the fights are stopped.
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  7. aznraven is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/13/2010 8:53pm


     Style: ShinKyokushin/Shitoryu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Zendokan View Post
    WhiteShark, MrGalt, you are both right that at his level it's primairly (99.9999% of the time) controlled tag playing. The reason is that all the top competitors come from Shotokan, Shotokai and a little bit or Shito-Ryu.
    All these karate styles that look and feel the same.
    There you only need speed and snap to win, in fact the skill levels are almost so identical that trying to put power in a punch will make you lose. You would need to come closer to your opponent and a powerful punch can be a fraction slower than an 'only speed' punch.

    Their body mechanics are specially designed for making the first contact, after that they wouldn't even know what to do. So indeed a fighter that trained in a continious hard-contact style would destroy them, but he would never get the first point. And sadly that's the objective of their competitions.



    On the ammy circuit, here on mainland Europe + eastblock Europe, it's a different story because of two reasons:
    1) It's an Open tournement: so you will see Kickboxers, Muay Thaiers, Knockdown Karateka, Kung-Fu fighters and so on enter the tournements
    They are at a big disadvantage in sport karate tournements
    2) Almost all judges are Shotokan Karateka or Shotokai Karateka, so expect some biased ruling.

    Almost all the fights except the finals (what a surprise) are Shotokanka/Shotokaika against another style, so you can be sure that no punch is controlled.
    The other styles aren't that fast with their fists and the Shotokanka don't get any fouls against themselfs for playing 'rough'.
    Now if the fight wouldn't be stopped after first contact, every Shotokanka would be destroyed by their opponents, but alas the fights are stopped.

    More or less agree with what you are saying, but in Singapore the tourney is not so mixed, we usually just get karate-stylists, shito-ryu is the largest in singapore, followed by goju-ryu, wado-ryu and shotokan.


    Speaking as a point-to-knockdown switcher, those bad habits you learn in light touch krotty detrained me at least to the point where I started out as a much worse fighter than someone in my same physical condition with no training would have been. My body mechanics were garbage. I had a decade and a half of experience in throwing techniques that had zero weight and structure behind them because all that mattered was speed and "snap."
    About the bad habits mentioned above, both my friend who has entered MuayThai and me who has entered Kyokushin have transitioned well.

    Only for maybe the first 3 months when sparring was not much in our styles, we kept our hands too low and move back when we score a hit and kick with a tap on the head. But In just a few months of sparring learning put your hands up and not pull back on your kick is not that hard.

    At the start I kept tapping guys faces with my leg even though they were swinging for mine with theirs. Had to keep practicing hard kicks to the head on pads for 1-2 months before I can comfortably kick someone in the head. It just felt "wrong" to kick someone hard in the head at the start, like it is wrong to hurt them. :icon_eek:

    We punch hard, we kick hard, we can take hits, that is not a problem. We do condition. Muscle is muscle and sparring consists a lot of punch to the body full strength.

    What is hard to change however is moving back or stopping for a sec when we cleaning hit our opponent, whenever I kick the guy in the face, whether he goes down or not, I stay there for a sec. That is one bad habit, for some reason, is very hard to break.
    Last edited by aznraven; 8/13/2010 8:58pm at .
  8. MrGalt is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/13/2010 9:24pm


     Style: Seidokaikan

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    Quote Originally Posted by aznraven View Post
    Only for maybe the first 3 months when sparring was not much in our styles, we kept our hands too low and move back when we score a hit and kick with a tap on the head. But In just a few months of sparring learning put your hands up and not pull back on your kick is not that hard.
    If it were as simple as "not pulling back" you'd have made the transition in ten minutes, dude. A kick that you don't intend to pull back is a completely different animal from a kick that you intend to touch skin and retract. The body mechanics, the structure, the pacing, everything is different.

    You spend those few months learning how to kick. All you brought with you from point-stop was flexibility and balance.
  9. aznraven is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/14/2010 2:02am


     Style: ShinKyokushin/Shitoryu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MrGalt View Post
    If it were as simple as "not pulling back" you'd have made the transition in ten minutes, dude. A kick that you don't intend to pull back is a completely different animal from a kick that you intend to touch skin and retract. The body mechanics, the structure, the pacing, everything is different.

    You spend those few months learning how to kick. All you brought with you from point-stop was flexibility and balance.
    And speed.

    I could kick most heads while sparring easily. In Kyokushin we do 2 types of kicks, the snap kick to the head AND kick with the full turn. It is the exact same kick as point sparring but snapping through the head instead of retracting before it hits.

    I had to take a couple of months to learn the round kick, I had not done it before joining Kyokushin.

    A lot of videos online show the snap kick in work (especially front leg snap).

    Power in my punches also come from my Shito-ryu base. Punching is punching, change the mechanics if you will but I could do Kyokushin straight punches immediately, and hard.

    Hooks and uppercuts too were no problem too, courtesy of my Amateur boxer dad and boxing friends.
  10. MrGalt is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/14/2010 6:49am


     Style: Seidokaikan

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by aznraven View Post
    And speed.

    I could kick most heads while sparring easily. In Kyokushin we do 2 types of kicks, the snap kick to the head AND kick with the full turn. It is the exact same kick as point sparring but snapping through the head instead of retracting before it hits.

    I had to take a couple of months to learn the round kick, I had not done it before joining Kyokushin.

    A lot of videos online show the snap kick in work (especially front leg snap).

    Power in my punches also come from my Shito-ryu base. Punching is punching, change the mechanics if you will but I could do Kyokushin straight punches immediately, and hard.

    Hooks and uppercuts too were no problem too, courtesy of my Amateur boxer dad and boxing friends.
    Speed was always there. I remember when I was a teenager I was always taught the old rule that "lead leg kicks are faster than rear leg kicks because you're closer." First time I sparred full contact just visiting a friend I discovered that when you had no intention of pulling back the difference is negligible. I'd have to analyze video to see at what point a snapping round kick starts decelerating, but I bet it's earlier than most people would think, unless you're one of those guys who just locks out and lets his joint do the snapping for him.

    Most point-stop krotty people at least in the United States are proud arm punchers because it's faster. Between that and the crazy theories many of us got handed from instructors who also didn't fight full-contact, putting power into a punch is another thing many people who switch have to learn from square one. I did EPAK along with point krotty for a while and I don't know how many times I was told that I can't rotate my body at all for any punch because that totally messes up my "width zone" or something.

    I'm glad you were one of the rare places that seem to just count points while sparring with real techniques, but most krottyka, having been taught that a strike is a touch, completely redesign their strikes around that concept, whether they set out to do so or not.
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