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  1. aiyer is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/09/2010 7:04am


     Style: Muay Thai, Savate

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I believe much of it, traditionally, is style based. In shito ryu, footwork is important and footwork drills were done weekly. These drills went from basic 'follow my movement' for beginners to pair up and adapt to your opponents movement. The first principle, as written down by Mabuni, of self defence is defensive footwork, the fifth principle would be offensive footwork.
  2. maofas is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/09/2010 10:56am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kenkojuku Karate, Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dargentus
    I think that a lot of the longer/shorter stances are really there either more as a conditioning tool or purely as transitional stances and were never really meant to be fought in on a regular basis...
    IMO this is 100% correct. If one ever watches video of themselves fighting and pays attention, there are moments all over the place where your weight shifts and you wind up in the various traditional stances for a moment.

    For example, zenkutsu dachi/front stance isn't meant to be a default stance for people to fight out of, rather it's how your weight shifts to the front during a punch.

    Neko ashi dachi/cat stance is how one suddenly draws their front foot back for a moment in order to void themselves against an attack. I do this a lot when trying to scoop a kick to my gut.

    Kokutsu dachi/back stance is for when you're already moving away from an attack and still find yourself needing to put your face a few extra inches out of harm's way (in a way that doesn't make you lean your head back). I often find myself stepping back and landing in it while my student's round kick just barely whizzes by my face.

    The various stances have just been a bit idealized for the sake of art, but most of them are in there. Some are probably just training tools though like you said, like the two hourglass stances.

    I'd never dream of squaring off to a guy in Kake Dachi or *shudder* Tsurani Dachi but can see the value of them in a transient phase of an interchange.
    I had to look up kake dachi, wow, I never knew that position had it's own specific name! I've always thought that was the most useless way ever to step, but when I started Judo I found out that's how you enter for a lot of pivot throws such as uchi mata. I don't know what Tsurani dachi is and can't find examples via Google.

    Horse stance I'd think is exclusively a training device, but it's in so many katas and I find myself transitioning through it a lot in Judo, so who knows...

    P.S. There's that one horse stance part part of Bassai Dai where, I know it can't possibly mean this, but I can't figure out what else it could be trying to show except pounding someone while standing up in their guard.
    Last edited by maofas; 8/09/2010 10:59am at .
  3. Craig Jenkins is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/09/2010 11:14am


     Style: Uechi Ryu, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    We're taught that pretty much everything except sanchin and cat stance are transitional - horse stance, leaning stance, kibadachi (sp?) etc. I see people spar in cat stance, and I've played around with it, but around here I suspect it's pretty vulnerable for single legs and other takedowns. Only use I see for horse stance is dropping your weight to block a throw, but that's probably a hangover from my last life.
  4. Dargentus is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/09/2010 1:22pm


     Style: Kyokushin, MMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by maofas View Post
    For example, zenkutsu dachi/front stance isn't meant to be a default stance for people to fight out of, rather it's how your weight shifts to the front during a punch.
    Thats exactly what I meant. The formal Zenkutsu Dachi is very much a styilised version of that same transiatory stance, I believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by maofas View Post
    Neko ashi dachi/cat stance is how one suddenly draws their front foot back for a moment in order to void themselves against an attack. I do this a lot when trying to scoop a kick to my gut.
    Same here, or avoid a sweep....


    Quote Originally Posted by maofas View Post
    I had to look up kake dachi, wow, I never knew that position had it's own specific name! I've always thought that was the most useless way ever to step, but when I started Judo I found out that's how you enter for a lot of pivot throws such as uchi mata. I don't know what Tsurani dachi is and can't find examples via Google.
    sorry, spelling... I meant Tsuruashi Dachi *red face* my bad.

    Again, I'd never face a guy in hooked stance but in the twisting movements of several throws I mind myself in it almost inadvertently.

    Likewise I'd never stand in crane stance I'd get swept so hard I'd forget my own name but in pulling my foot back in my kicks I end up in a half-assed one...


    Quote Originally Posted by maofas View Post
    Horse stance I'd think is exclusively a training device, but it's in so many katas and I find myself transitioning through it a lot in Judo, so who knows...

    P.S. There's that one horse stance part part of Bassai Dai where, I know it can't possibly mean this, but I can't figure out what else it could be trying to show except pounding someone while standing up in their guard.
    There's a lot of transitioning in higher-end kyokushin between Zenkutsu and Kiba dachis that in my view can only be either a throwing movement or some variation of a g'n'p maneuver while standing.

    But If i'd not practised MMA and trained as (an almost inadvertant) uke with a lot of Judo/Bjj guys I really don't think I'd ever have made the connection.
  5. Dsimon3387 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/10/2010 2:05am

    Join us... or die
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by CodosDePiedra View Post
    DSimon, you've been around karate a long time and have experience in other arts, so I have a karate footwork question. Can you explain how the crescent stepping footwork is best used? I was first exposed to this in tang soo do and have noticed that every Mcdojo out there seems to stress them (because they're form intensive) and I always thought that it was goofy and overcomplicated. Then a few things changed my perspective a little bit. One was that I did a stint of training with an Okinawan karate guy who taught me for a while, and that the crescent step footwork was used to basically coil and uncoil the body and position it relative to the opponent for explosively striking off the rear arm at an opening (as I understand it, coiling and uncoiling is the boiled down core of many martial arts). Also the Dog Brothers make extensive use of triangular footwork, which although it may be from a more "athletic looking" posture, the way that the bodyweight shifts should have a flow to it, and when you round out a triangle, it becomes kinda crescent shaped. I'd like to hear your thoughts on the crescent footwork you see in the kata and how it applies to fighting (also since you're a knife guy, any ways you relate it to knife fighting- I know I've seen the DB guys using it to enter with a full body momentum forearm strike to the neck when someone tried to draw a weapon).

    notice first of all that you have one definition that you were told, helmond has given you another idea, and I am sure you could get another five for good measure.... thats a real problem. Not that anyone is wrong, just that in karate you will find that a lot of people teaching do not know and simply bounce and flounce stop and strike, then wonder why they cannot generate power. By comparison ask anyone in the Booj about footwork in Gyoko Ryu and there is a reason and a kata that tells you the reason with no contrdiction.

    ok cresecnet stepping: Why? no reason in particular. Reason? explosiveness is very important. In Okinawan karate the cat stance generally teaches this quality of movement. Also at times Sanchin kata, with dynamic tension and release teach this quality of movement... I once watched a man in a tournament put another guy in cardiac arrest with dynamic tension movements.... or one movement.

    Even the crescent kick is not really emphasized. We were taught it as a modified side kick (for all practical purposes). Probably because in Okinawan karate generally the kicks are not dynamic and circular like Korean karate.

    Crescent footwork does allow you to do the following:

    a) Leg check an opponent. When you step crisply with short efficient movements it becomes relatively easy to step out keeping your balance and foot low to the ground and put your outstretched foot on your opponent's leg for a split second to see where his weight is.

    b) it allows you to practice stepping into positions with less movement. In a real situation because in karate your hitting hand is a split second behind your body as you step to hit you need to shorten the stepping and crescent stepping is a way to cheat by circling in instead of taking a full step. But beware as it is a misconception that you should stop to deliver a hit, this takes your power away totally. In fact because your hip chambers your strike, even if it is subtle, there is just a slight delay before the strike is completed, and... there are ways of punching in Okinwn Te where you do not chamber from the hip but you still generate power the same way.

    regarding a knife? triangle is different footwork. A crescent based footwork used in knife fighting would probably be more of a small circular movement... At least in Japanese muto Dori (wepons avoidance)
    This thread never was a high quality conversation - My friend vern Gilbert on the William Acquier thread.

    The fight in question having started over who owns which piece of rubble. Nicko1;2233174 On the Acquier Kim Fiasco slash thread.
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