223756 Bullies, 3750 online  
  • Register
Our Sponsors:

Results 1 to 10 of 15
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Sponsored Links Spacer Image
  1. Dsimon3387 is offline

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    san francisco
    Posts
    3,079

    Posted On:
    8/06/2010 7:48pm

    Join us... or die
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    karate and footwork what happened?

    first apologies to some of you senior guys for saying something about footwork and not really qualifying it. Thats uncalled for... its ok to have a strong opinion based on experience but if it the check is written with thy mouth thy ass should be hock ready.

    Ok so here let me qualify my feelings about karate and what has happened to karate. Most of all when I say "karate has no footwork" let me explain why I say this.

    The date is approximately June around 1982 I am graduating high school and we have a typical situation at the dojo: Some ghetto based Baltimore Kung Fu guys want to throw down. they come in and sort of instinctively go towards the white boy and start talking ****.... Sensei has left the class for a while, so we go at it for a while and in about 2 seconds these guys see that it is best to make friends and they do. After our exchange they explain to me about how they are about harmony and energy and circular movements that compliment and do not force the opponent. I have seen other guys like this and am intrigued.

    Sensei comes back and I restate what happened he smiles then I ask him about their claim about the ultimate strength being in harmony and soft circular movement... much to my suprise he says the following; "Yes Darrell they are right... I have never seen anyone able to fight with it but that is the ultimate and their are guys who can do it and they are supreme." I come to find out that karate is in fact to many a shortened version of more complete Chinese arts that came to Okinawa. In incorporating the need for speed of use these chinese arts were modified and shortcuts were created.

    I am told that hard blocks that we use (we have both circular and hard), breaking techniques, and hard stances are all a way to shorten the years of development that went into these practices before karate developed. They allow us to through physical means overcome the need for advanced movement skills among other things.

    As the years go by I learn that part of the strength of karate is how it reduces all fighting elements to strong foward technique done with the proper intent, physical development, speed and power. It makes it so we can block when we need to and hit very hard when we go fowards. We are taugh to fight and go fowards no matter what.. footwork accomidates this. Through this we develop many skills. Things like making the body like a rock to hit, breaking the person down who is hitting with blocking strikes, grabbing and turning a person into a punch, etc.

    We are also never taught footwork, Yes we are taught that in the katas one steps a certain way, but we do not fight that way. In fact in karate it has been my experience that you learn to set up your footwork so you can deliver your technique and that it varies from individual to individual considerably. As one gets more natural and better one can deliver technique from any position, so the difference between a person who has been fighting a long time versus a short time is that the person who is less experienced has to set up to throw techniqe while the experienced guy simply can throw technique from any position. But the footwork is always subordinate and it is simply the way I have to move to deliver my techniques on target.

    Historically I think that karate guys decided that they wanted to be able to fight with more fluidity in the ring, actually what i ws told was there was a need to use more techniques in the ring... the hybrid sport of kick boxing was developed to accomidate a more fluid situation in the ring....Kick boxing was supposed to be a way for karate to become ring endowed but, the problem is the footwork of a boxer, and a kick boxer is not the same as the footwork used by a karateka. Real karate kumite is a pleasure to fight with but does not lend itself to a ring scenerio when using the techniques with a bouncy flouncy motion used by various boxing styles.

    Now a days you see people fight karate like kick boxing and it sucks... no power in the techniques and half asses boxing with half asses karate. Why did karate take to this footwork in the first place? because of a need to accomidate a sparring situation in the ring. But it was a mistake.

    I believe that when people practice the stepping patterns in kata it is not how these movements are applied in kumite. In Kumite one tends to pull the weight back more, use cat stance movement more and has to be lighter on the feet and shorter on the stepping than the kata allow for, hence my words "karate has no footwork."

    Do karate fighters have footwork? hell yeah!! as Mcgraff said "any live art scenerio demands that a fighter have footwork."

    Is Karate is decent art? Hell yeah. You need to perfect your tai sabaki, ashi sabaki etc but when you do karate can rock.
    This thread never was a high quality conversation - My friend vern Gilbert on the William Acquier thread.

    The fight in question having started over who owns which piece of rubble. Nicko1;2233174 On the Acquier Kim Fiasco slash thread.
  2. Permalost is online now
    Permalost's Avatar

    pro nonsense self defense

    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    12,527

    Posted On:
    8/08/2010 1:20pm

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think that one of the bigger problems with footwork in karate, kung fu etc is that when it is taught in a form, it may teach you a way to move, but not a way to move that's consistent and relational to an opponent. For example, here's my friend Jerry teaching kickboxing footwork fundamentals:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/UFKickbo.../1/OkCXgP2V57A
    Notice how the movement he teaches is related entirely to a point representing an opponent, and the movement is taught in a structured way so that the fighter is always poised to attack or defend. When I taught kung fu, these were the kind of things that I liked to teach, but the curriculum was all static techniques and forms, so it didn't flow naturally from the basics.
    When I was practicing karate (shito ryu I believe, under a Tadashi Yamashita black belt) we did active footwork drills that I reallly liked. There was one where you'd have two partners that would try to flank you, and your task was to kind of keep them in a visual cone, or even more ideally lined up one after the other.

    If you could do one thing to improve karate footwork, what would it be?
  3. Dsimon3387 is offline

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    san francisco
    Posts
    3,079

    Posted On:
    8/08/2010 4:40pm

    Join us... or die
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CodosDePiedra View Post
    I think that one of the bigger problems with footwork in karate, kung fu etc is that when it is taught in a form, it may teach you a way to move, but not a way to move that's consistent and relational to an opponent. For example, here's my friend Jerry teaching kickboxing footwork fundamentals:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/UFKickbo.../1/OkCXgP2V57A
    Notice how the movement he teaches is related entirely to a point representing an opponent, and the movement is taught in a structured way so that the fighter is always poised to attack or defend. When I taught kung fu, these were the kind of things that I liked to teach, but the curriculum was all static techniques and forms, so it didn't flow naturally from the basics.
    When I was practicing karate (shito ryu I believe, under a Tadashi Yamashita black belt) we did active footwork drills that I reallly liked. There was one where you'd have two partners that would try to flank you, and your task was to kind of keep them in a visual cone, or even more ideally lined up one after the other.

    If you could do one thing to improve karate footwork, what would it be?
    Yes the problem is that the footwork taught in the forms does not appear to clearly corelate to Kumite.

    What I would do..... As much as I love and respect super foot, Louis and t some of the other guys who leaned towards kick boxing I would take it away and as far from karate as possible. Reason being as you point out in your vid (btw) kickboxing has footwork! that corelates to how one fights with the art.

    Karate was forced to develop and when it did it became awesome to behold. Guys who started doing what Riley was doing got so fucking fast and accurate that before you knew what happened you were broken up and on the ground.

    But..... the karate we were doing never looked like kickboxing. There was no bouncing, no set up techniques like a boxer would use. And there was this great discord between the forms and the fighting that we all just sort of laughed about. I mean at a typical tourney in the late eightied in the Balto DC area every now and then we would get a JKA guy who tried that slow **** and would wind up meditating in the horizintal position haha.

    But my friend the big debate, the elephant in the middle of the room became how did guys do footwork? And all I can really say is that we all had our own ways and it was effective but it looked nothing like the forms and the kickboxing guys they bounced up and down. This bouncing destroyed the pure power dynamics of karate when used properly. Hence kick boxers could hit karate guys, they could even win in tourneys but what they could not do was fight against more evolved boxing styles like thai and stndard boxing. And because of the bouncing the grapplers just timed em and took em down before they could get any good shots in.

    Meanwhile people assumed this was how karate was used and to this day I can go all over this country and watch karateka bouncing up and down when fighting which is horrible... heck I even saw some of Riley's later guys do it nd could not believe it.
    This thread never was a high quality conversation - My friend vern Gilbert on the William Acquier thread.

    The fight in question having started over who owns which piece of rubble. Nicko1;2233174 On the Acquier Kim Fiasco slash thread.
  4. Permalost is online now
    Permalost's Avatar

    pro nonsense self defense

    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    12,527

    Posted On:
    8/08/2010 5:05pm

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    DSimon, you've been around karate a long time and have experience in other arts, so I have a karate footwork question. Can you explain how the crescent stepping footwork is best used? I was first exposed to this in tang soo do and have noticed that every Mcdojo out there seems to stress them (because they're form intensive) and I always thought that it was goofy and overcomplicated. Then a few things changed my perspective a little bit. One was that I did a stint of training with an Okinawan karate guy who taught me for a while, and that the crescent step footwork was used to basically coil and uncoil the body and position it relative to the opponent for explosively striking off the rear arm at an opening (as I understand it, coiling and uncoiling is the boiled down core of many martial arts). Also the Dog Brothers make extensive use of triangular footwork, which although it may be from a more "athletic looking" posture, the way that the bodyweight shifts should have a flow to it, and when you round out a triangle, it becomes kinda crescent shaped. I'd like to hear your thoughts on the crescent footwork you see in the kata and how it applies to fighting (also since you're a knife guy, any ways you relate it to knife fighting- I know I've seen the DB guys using it to enter with a full body momentum forearm strike to the neck when someone tried to draw a weapon).
  5. helmutlvx is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    West Virginia
    Posts
    1,952

    Posted On:
    8/08/2010 7:18pm


     Style: In transition

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Crescent-shaped footwork is partly to train the muscles in the legs for sweeping other legs.

    As far as Okinawan karate from my perspective is concerned, it's stressed that you don't move your legs during a strike and have a distinct stance to draw power from. (Hip power, that is.)

    I used to bounce some with my footwork to stay light in case I needed to close distance, but the easiest workaround is to throw a front kick and pull the back leg in afterwards.

    Also, about circle-stepping, there's also a certain rationalization about keeping the foot as close to the ground as possible to feel for varying terrain. I think it's a bit silly since there tends to be too much going on to worry about that.
  6. Dargentus is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Eye-er-land
    Posts
    354

    Posted On:
    8/08/2010 8:24pm


     Style: Kyokushin, MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    What do ye guys think about this:

    YouTube- ‪Kyokushin Karate MAAI UNSOKU PART 1‬‎

    Its seems to be a variation on a drill my Sensei taught me when I first learned/was shown it that iI was informed that was origionally developed by Matsui under Oyama.

    Thats entirely Word of mouth tho so by means call bullshit on it if you like.

    I've seen footage on a dvd of Sensei's of Matsui teaching similar footwork movements.
    If anyone interested I'll ask him for it and see if I can post it up.

    I think that a lot of the longer/shorter stances are really there either more as a conditioning tool or purely as transitional stances and were never really meant to be fought in on a regular basis...

    I'd never dream of squaring off to a guy in Kake Dachi or *shudder* Tsurani Dachi but can see the value of them in a transient phase of an interchange.

    Strictly IMO though.
  7. Permalost is online now
    Permalost's Avatar

    pro nonsense self defense

    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    12,527

    Posted On:
    8/08/2010 8:38pm

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by helmutlvx View Post
    Crescent-shaped footwork is partly to train the muscles in the legs for sweeping other legs.
    Can you elaborate on this? Choy li fut had sweeping footwork with the legs (which I found doesn't really work unless you know how to attack someone's posture), but the standard karate crescent stepping forward circles in a way that I don't see being useful as a lead in to a sweeping motion.

    As far as Okinawan karate from my perspective is concerned, it's stressed that you don't move your legs during a strike and have a distinct stance to draw power from. (Hip power, that is.)
    A lot of the kung fu forms I learned were similar in that the stance and the strike were put together so that shifting between stances is the way that power was generated in strikes. This works well enough without weapons, but I think taking that type of thinking rather than hitting on the move is why kobudo seems to have trouble working against weapon stylists from other disciplines.


    Also, about circle-stepping, there's also a certain rationalization about keeping the foot as close to the ground as possible to feel for varying terrain. I think it's a bit silly since there tends to be too much going on to worry about that.
    I've done some training on various uneven surfaces, and I'd say that circle stepping and keeping my foot as close to the ground as possible aren't things I'd want in my footwork.
  8. maofas is offline
    maofas's Avatar

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Raleigh, North Carolina
    Posts
    2,975

    Posted On:
    8/08/2010 8:48pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kenkojuku Karate, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    a) IMO the crescent step is a way to train beginners to make sure they do not wind up with their feet on the same line (tight-roped as I call it) and instead wind up roughly hip distance apart which is crucial in order to be able to twist into a punch with your rear hand.

    I've heard lots of other things, like it was intended to protect the groin during a fight (but no one steps like that during a fight), or that it's a hidden sweep (but sweeps are performed with straight legs so you can use the hip) so I'm not sold on either. Nowadays I just start people moving the right way and constantly correct them if I see their feet get too close.

    b) I disagree in a broad sense that they is no set-up technique in Karate, but I think I know what you're trying to say. There's a difference between throwing combinations at someone until something (or everything) in the chain lands and knowing from moment number one what technique you're going for, and perhaps using something else to facilitate it landing. There are a lot of single shots thrown though, it's just that footwork, body feints, or timing the opponent's attack to counter can be the setup rather than other thrown techniques.

    I wouldn't say that's all Karate though, perhaps just Shotokan & it's offshoots (i.e. Wado) or maybe it's all Shuri-based Karate from which they are descended. I don't think one can consistently pull off the same feats from close range. You have to brawl a bit there.

    c) I don't think forms were ever meant to teach you footwork anymore than a kata represents one continuous fight scene. It's just some short technique sequences all smooshed together. Most footwork happens before and after, not during a technique. What footwork you do learn from kata are things like how to pivot with balance, how to step down from a kick in line to twist your hips into a punch, etc.
  9. Dargentus is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Eye-er-land
    Posts
    354

    Posted On:
    8/08/2010 8:56pm


     Style: Kyokushin, MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by maofas View Post
    a

    c) I don't think forms were ever meant to teach you footwork anymore than a kata represents one continuous fight scene. It's just some short technique sequences all smooshed together. Most footwork happens before and after, not during a technique. What footwork you do learn from kata are things like how to pivot with balance, how to step down from a kick in line to twist your hips into a punch, etc.
    That what I was trying to say but you said it better.

    pushups.
  10. helmutlvx is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    West Virginia
    Posts
    1,952

    Posted On:
    8/08/2010 9:06pm


     Style: In transition

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CodosDePiedra View Post
    Can you elaborate on this? Choy li fut had sweeping footwork with the legs (which I found doesn't really work unless you know how to attack someone's posture), but the standard karate crescent stepping forward circles in a way that I don't see being useful as a lead in to a sweeping motion.
    Compared to judo, it sucks as a technique and it requires the opponent to be in motion when you take the leg. I also tend to fall down with my partner as I do this, as well. It's basically just putting your leg behind your opponent's leg.


    A lot of the kung fu forms I learned were similar in that the stance and the strike were put together so that shifting between stances is the way that power was generated in strikes. This works well enough without weapons, but I think taking that type of thinking rather than hitting on the move is why kobudo seems to have trouble working against weapon stylists from other disciplines.
    I did a little bit of bojutsu kata years ago and forgot it all, so I don't know too much about that.

    I've done some training on various uneven surfaces, and I'd say that circle stepping and keeping my foot as close to the ground as possible aren't things I'd want in my footwork.
    To be honest, I don't know why that explanation is still used. I've thought that it's done in such a way that it forces beginners to keep on the balls of their feet instead rocking back on the heels when they move was the reason.

    I dunno how much I'm contributing to the thread with all my criticism, y'know? Hope that helps answer your question.
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Powered by vBulletin™© contact@vbulletin.com vBulletin Solutions, Inc. 2011 All rights reserved.