Humane self defense

**DdlR** · Posted On: 8/06/2010 11:04pm

Originally Posted by diesel_tke

Yeah, it depends on the way you do a double leg. Some people do a penetration step then clinch the legs, then lift up and drop them. I prfer to do the pentration step, then clinch the legs, then push and turn. It makes the fall a lot easier and it takes less strength then you would need when lifting.

I hear you, but I still reckon any takedown in which the subject's head isn't supported/controlled could be too risky for these scenarios; a pity, because double legs are pretty high percentage otherwise.

The breaking and escaping is pretty easy to drill, and I have found that it is almost not necessary. When you spend a lot of time doing the more advanced techniques, steping out or away is a simple veriation to almost everything. Once you have control, backing away is easy. Getting control is the hard part.

I agree with the last part but suggest that actively drilling the "break and escape" options reinforces the idea that this isn't a "fight" per se. The object is to minimize risk for all concerned via whatever pragmatic means, rather than to win in the conventional sense. Obviously, the best tactic is always going to be situation-specific.

**Diesel_tke** · Posted On: 8/07/2010 7:35am

Yeah depending on what you are training for. At the academy, we finished everything with cuffing. On the swat team we finished everything with getting away, cuffing was done after the entire situation was under control. Like mass cuffing. You should do all of them. That way your people maintain situational awareness and don't get one option ingrained into their heads.

You train how you fight, and you fight how you train. I like to change up the training environment too. Throw in some chairs and tables, and stuff you can use for improvised weapons. Also limit the space you are working with, like you are in a room or cell. And a fun one is having one on two, but the objective is to get out of the room, that one opens your eyes a lot about how to deal with two people and not get tunnel vision when you start fighting.

**DdlR** · Posted On: 8/07/2010 8:27am

I think that sort of realistic scenario-based training is crucial. Unfortunately, my impression is that it isn't typically available to many of the people for whom "humane self defense" would be most useful - psych. workers, etc.

**Diesel_tke** · Posted On: 8/08/2010 8:51pm

Yeah, it is not typically available to most people. Usually just like-minded getting together to train. I think there are only a few schools that take it as far as I do.

**mrtnira** · Posted On: 8/08/2010 8:58pm

Request for information on this topic! I'm thankful this topic came up when it did. Are there resources of non-combative defensive techniques used by psychiatric workers or other work-roles needing to de-escalate potential physical conflicts?

I have to build a short course in principles and methods on this, and I'm running into trouble finding valid training aids and source material.

Suggestions? Direction? Thank you for your help in this, before hand.

**DdlR** · Posted On: 8/09/2010 2:00am

mrtnira, I've been looking into this off and on for years and the majority of these types of courses are offered within the private sector, i.e. at the institutional level. Here are some links that *may* be useful:

http://www.mandtsystem.com/
http://www.crisisprevention.com/
http://www.handlewithcare.com/
http://www.crisisconsultantgroup.com/
http://www.ellisamdur.com/index.html

Training providers in this area are promoting their services to psychiatric institutions, etc. and unfortunately, many patients have been accidentally injured and even killed by mis-applied physical restraint techniques. The language and tone of their material reflects the need to be sensitive to controversy. Therefore, these companies typically bend over backwards to frame what they do in therapeutic terms, rather than in macho, athletic/defensive tactics/martial arts jargon.

These courses will often include seminar-type classroom presentations like this:

YouTube- ‪Crisis Prevention Institute‬&lrm;

Backed up with role-playing exercises:

YouTube- ‪Crisis Intervention Training‬&lrm;

... which is all fine for what it is. However, the actual quality of the physical intervention training is questionable, especially vis-a-vis realism. A major problem here is that the people who need "humane self defense" training (with the probable exceptions of police/corrections/security/etc.) are not really in the martial arts/athletic demographics. They are doctors, orderlies, teachers, nurses, social workers etc. who may simply accept physical risk and even injuries as being part of the job.

On top of that, the people who make the funding decisions at the institutional level may simply not understand how much training time is required to master physical defense skills. IMO the level, intensity and quality of the "physical intervention" training is a systemic weakness, although it obviously varies a lot depending on particular courses.

**6footgeek** · Posted On: 8/10/2010 1:53pm

It really depends on where you live.
In a third world country like mine, i live in Pakistan, the situation is VERY VERY different.

See Pakistan is a country with BRILLIANT people. But they're all manhandled by a SHITTY minority with power in their hands.

Our Government is hell bent on squeezing us dry, our police is just as corrupt, and other political parties want to be the government so that they can do the same. The only respectable groups the army, and they don't have any real power given to them in the name of preserving DEMOCRACY. Pffft.

IN just the last 30 DAYS, we have had flooding which left 3 million people homeless, destroyed our entire agricultural industry and number of casualties are simply unknown. We had 3 days of gun violence and target killing with over 200 people killed and a further 500 injuired because some low member of a political party was shot dead. And guess where the police was when all the gun violence was going on? at home. They were 'denied' to confront the vermin.

And guess what our president did while all this was going on?
He went to london, picked his kids, went to france, dropped his kids there and engoyed for a week, came back to london to hold TALKS with a guy who had a few weeks earlier said ill about our country in front of the media.
And guess what? all the money recuired comes from the Government Bank of Pakistan, yup. OUR money.

Now i may seem like complaining.... heck. I AM complaining. but i'm also trying to give you an idea of what the situation is here.
Over here if you get mugged, or confronted by a person, chances are that he's some henchman for the govt, or political parties and thus has complete amnesty from the police. he can do anything to me. If i don't drop him dead and anyone who was with him there is a high chance they will seek me out, and kill me. And that's the sad truth. even an unarmed fight has to be taken this seriously.
Heck to give you another example. 2-3 months back, the kid of a customs official got drunk and opened fire with his dad's gun from the roof, aiming at and killing 4 people and injuring almost 10. His family fled the country just a few hours later. no one knows where they are. and the government aint getting em back cuz they say its a 'sensitive diplomatic issue because they are no longer in pakistani boundries'

All in all. street fights here are a very sensitive matter. you can be all humanitarian and try to get away with a disarm and knock out, Heck i would totally do that, but then you've gotta be afraid of them striking back....
All that being said. i haven't gotten into any serious street fights yet. Mostly because of all the awareness stuff on my part and my family. We try not to roam around the streets, keep to our houses, head straight for destinations and don't stand out and that keeps us safe.

**DdlR** · Posted On: 8/10/2010 2:03pm

Yes - self defense is contextual. A man in a street fight against two other guys armed with crowbars had best put all thoughts of humane self defense to flight. On the other hand, a school teacher who has to physically control a panicking 14 year old had better not act as if he was in a fight for his life.

**6footgeek** · Posted On: 8/10/2010 2:16pm

I know. this thread is supposed to be a Mild threat level self defence situation, but i guess i'd consider any MILD threat level to be one a one on one with a or may be perhaps one on two un armed fight.

I guess i kind of classify a teacher-student fight or mentally ill relative getting violent sort of thing to be less than mild.

In those sort of situation its either run and get official help or a bit of wrist controlling.

**gregaquaman** · Posted On: 8/10/2010 2:28pm

I was thinking about the boxing glove training. That would work well set up in a mock confrontation rather than a sparring situation.
have glove guy mouth off ,push people around and generally act like an ass hat but without the violence.
Also from a verbal your setups will be different.
For the purposes of the amber light stuff anyway.