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  1. maofas is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/06/2010 11:47am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kenkojuku Karate, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The answer is grappling. I hate to say it, but striking doesn't work doing it at half power. The best you can do is not hit them in the head if you want to be nice. Judo gives me a lot more options. I can take the person down without slamming them, put them in a pin till they calm down, or choke them unconscious. Furthermore I don't feel quite as pressured to keep a person out of my face at all costs. I know I can control a bigger person (within reason) in a clinch no problem, which gives me more leeway to try and defuse the situation.

    Besides osoto, I'd think sasae is a good takedown for this, not too hard to do without a gi, the footwork is similar to osoto so less time investment to learn both, and gives you good control over their upper body as they fall so you can keep them from slamming their head on the floor.

    Scarfhold is the bomb for controlling people, I can be held in that pin by a much smaller person even though I know how to escape it. It leaves one of their hands free behind your back though, so I think it's a bit risky, as they could draw a weapon with it. Side mount might be better as you can either control both arms or at least keep them from reaching their pockets/waistband.

    P.S. That being said, I'm not a LEO or a bouncer. I've been in only two adult situations ever that wound up becoming violent (both on/around public transportation!), and anything else I base my opinions off five years of breaking up brawls between highschool kids (albeit most of them were bigger than me and probably 3 years older than they should've been at that grade level, but still), or the opinions of instructors who were cops/corrections, so my 2 cents and grain of salt please. IMO, find a Judo instructor who is a cop and work this out with them.
    Last edited by maofas; 8/06/2010 12:24pm at . Reason: Brevity
  2. MikeRC is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/06/2010 11:54am


     Style: Arnis Kali

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If you are interested here is the PDF http://rccp.cornell.edu/assets/TCI_SYSTBULLETIN.pdf of the study and methodology of the NYS system. There are no techniques or drills shown on line.

    I still have all the materials from when I was an instructor, including the DVDs, but obviously cannot copy or transmit due to copyright laws.
  3. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/06/2010 11:59am

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     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    @maofas, I'm pretty much taking grappling for granted; striking being (somewhat) more likely to cause injuries, etc. That said, even proven grappling systems have to be modified for the sorts of scenarios we're discussing here.

    Trainees need a solid, truly realistic method for defending against strikes, even if they can't respond by striking. Takedowns, as you suggest, have to be low-impact (ref. the "sit-slide" mentioned by MikeRC) and transition into relatively safe pins or open up opportunities to escape the situation if that's appropriate. The choice of pins and submissions (or even whether to include them at all) is crucial because of the dangers of positional asphyxia, especially when a panicked subject is being restrained by a heavier person.
  4. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/06/2010 12:04pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeRC View Post
    If you are interested here is the PDF http://rccp.cornell.edu/assets/TCI_SYSTBULLETIN.pdf of the study and methodology of the NYS system. There are no techniques or drills shown on line.

    I still have all the materials from when I was an instructor, including the DVDs, but obviously cannot copy or transmit due to copyright laws.
    Oh, TCI - yeah, there are some problems there. Thanks for the PDF link.
  5. gregaquaman is online now
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    Posted On:
    8/06/2010 12:20pm


     Style: mma /boxing/muai thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Another thing I thought I would add is a simple entry that I use. Looking though youtube for that damn lock I am noticing that a lot of people are trying to come at the person from behind. Nice if you can get it but no world is perfect.

    I normally come in from the front and while talking alot of bullshit take control of the elbow and wrist (one hand on each).

    The pressure can vary from just placing my hands there as a sort of guard or hack hand trapping to pushing and pulling to grabbing and engaging.

    Quick edit.
    I can also shoot for the Osotogari side mount or the other tequniques that I have recomended from there.

    See I gots a whole system going.
    It is just a nice low key way to enter from the front gives you their arm and some control of their movement if they swing. But it also lets you shoot for their blind side or back. I find it very easy to tuck my head in behind their shoulder where I feel safer.

    This also works when a person has their guard up

    I also get a high pecentage of people who will turn their back to me to remove their arm from being trapped which is a shame for them.
    Last edited by gregaquaman; 8/06/2010 12:24pm at .
  6. Diesel_tke is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/06/2010 12:44pm

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     Style: stick,Taiji, mountainbike

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't think striking training is out of the question as far as training goes. I think it is good training because it helps you to be able to learn to respond to strikes, through sparring. If you are not going to be training striking, then you will want to have drills where someone is striking (say with gloves on) and you have to respond to the strikes with appropriat actions. We do this drill a lot, and it is pretty fun.

    Usually the response is to cover, close the distance, get control (using a double leg, arm triangle, bear hug, over under, ect.) then getting the takedown. Usually the takedown is with the intention of following with control...much like you do in Sambo.

    The way we train is by first drilling proper techniques, and then doing drills that are live, and then free sparring.

    The gracie combatives program has some pretty good techniques for these. I've used them for years when I did the gracie LEO combatives program, and they are about the same in the combatives DVDs they put out.
    Combatives training log.

    Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

    Drum thread

    Pavel Tsatsouline: kettlebell workouts give you “cardio without the dishonour of aerobics”.
  7. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/06/2010 12:52pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by diesel_tke View Post
    I don't think striking training is out of the question as far as training goes. I think it is good training because it helps you to be able to learn to respond to strikes, through sparring. If you are not going to be training striking, then you will want to have drills where someone is striking (say with gloves on) and you have to respond to the strikes with appropriat actions. We do this drill a lot, and it is pretty fun.

    Usually the response is to cover, close the distance, get control (using a double leg, arm triangle, bear hug, over under, ect.) then getting the takedown. Usually the takedown is with the intention of following with control...much like you do in Sambo.

    The way we train is by first drilling proper techniques, and then doing drills that are live, and then free sparring.

    The gracie combatives program has some pretty good techniques for these. I've used them for years when I did the gracie LEO combatives program, and they are about the same in the combatives DVDs they put out.
    Yes, that's what I'm talking about; realistic, progressively resistant training, including defending against strikes. I'm not sure about the double leg in this context because of the risk of the subject being injured by the fall.

    Also, simply escaping (breaking away and running, etc.) could be an option in these amber light scenarios and IMO should be trained just as rigorously as the close-quarters techniques.
  8. maofas is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/06/2010 2:33pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kenkojuku Karate, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    Trainees need a solid, truly realistic method for defending against strikes, even if they can't respond by striking.
    IMO practicing answer-the-phone/comb-your-hair drilled vs. a partner laying into them with 16 oz gloves (the goal being to close distance and get the puncher into a clinch they can work from) is really the simplest thing to repeatedly practice and become decent at in a short time.

    If they do it correctly with their body twisting it works for both straights and round punches (though yes, there are better ways to block straights), making it pretty idiot-proof and letting you drill one thing with more reps instead of two things with less.

    P.S. If a person learns how to keep their weight down on someone, they also learn how to ease their weight off someone too. I'd think you'd just need to explicitly state the need to not crush someone to death, especially someone smaller, and have them practice progressively applying more weight on their partner in the pin, and then easing weight off them by degrees.
    Last edited by maofas; 8/06/2010 2:48pm at .
  9. Diesel_tke is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/06/2010 3:01pm

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     Style: stick,Taiji, mountainbike

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    Yes, that's what I'm talking about; realistic, progressively resistant training, including defending against strikes. I'm not sure about the double leg in this context because of the risk of the subject being injured by the fall.

    Also, simply escaping (breaking away and running, etc.) could be an option in these amber light scenarios and IMO should be trained just as rigorously as the close-quarters techniques.

    Yeah, it depends on the way you do a double leg. Some people do a penetration step then clinch the legs, then lift up and drop them. I prfer to do the pentration step, then clinch the legs, then push and turn. It makes the fall a lot easier and it takes less strength then you would need when lifting.

    The breaking and escaping is pretty easy to drill, and I have found that it is almost not necessary. When you spend a lot of time doing the more advanced techniques, steping out or away is a simple veriation to almost everything. Once you have control, backing away is easy. Getting control is the hard part.
    Combatives training log.

    Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

    Drum thread

    Pavel Tsatsouline: kettlebell workouts give you “cardio without the dishonour of aerobics”.
  10. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/06/2010 10:57pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by maofas View Post
    IMO practicing answer-the-phone/comb-your-hair drilled vs. a partner laying into them with 16 oz gloves (the goal being to close distance and get the puncher into a clinch they can work from) is really the simplest thing to repeatedly practice and become decent at in a short time.

    If they do it correctly with their body twisting it works for both straights and round punches (though yes, there are better ways to block straights), making it pretty idiot-proof and letting you drill one thing with more reps instead of two things with less.
    We're on the same page there.

    P.S. If a person learns how to keep their weight down on someone, they also learn how to ease their weight off someone too. I'd think you'd just need to explicitly state the need to not crush someone to death, especially someone smaller, and have them practice progressively applying more weight on their partner in the pin, and then easing weight off them by degrees.
    I think that requirement needs to be built into it at the technical level. There are just way too many cases of disturbed people accidentally dying because their panicked struggles to breathe were mistaken for violent resistance by well-meaning but poorly trained restrainers.
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