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  1. lklawson is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/08/2010 9:52am


     Style: Bowie

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    Quote Originally Posted by judoist View Post
    Shaw's cross counter would make a nice transition into an armlock. Awesome collection, Kirk.
    Yeah. It's the same Cross-Counter just that Shaw lets it go a little deeper and hits with more of a Hook than a Rounding Blow.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
  2. speedycerviche is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/12/2010 2:47am


     Style: BJJ, Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Any reason for the Karate looking "chamberd" hands? The only thing I could think of was to make the image easier to understand but is there any pratical point of the hand position or is that how they actually fought?
  3. lklawson is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/13/2010 8:02am


     Style: Bowie

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    Quote Originally Posted by speedycerviche View Post
    Any reason for the Karate looking "chamberd" hands? The only thing I could think of was to make the image easier to understand but is there any pratical point of the hand position or is that how they actually fought?
    Two reasons.

    First, the position was intended to help cover the pit of the stomach or the solar plexus (aka, "The Mark").

    Second, the greater range at which boxing took place under these earlier rule sets allowed the participants to keep their hands in a lower, more comfortable and less taxing, position.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
  4. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    9/13/2010 4:57pm

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

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    Quote Originally Posted by lklawson View Post
    Two reasons.

    First, the position was intended to help cover the pit of the stomach or the solar plexus (aka, "The Mark").

    Second, the greater range at which boxing took place under these earlier rule sets allowed the participants to keep their hands in a lower, more comfortable and less taxing, position.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
    I've heard a few other reasons given, but really haven't researched it much. Anyway,
    1. Without gloves, less desirable to hit the head with a fist since you can hurt your hand.
    2. The long amount of time it took to develop pictures led to boxers to use a more casual stance when depicted (but this doesn't make sense for paintings/drawings/woodcuts)
    3. better position for standup grappling (allowed)
    4. I think there may have been a social perception of cowardice if a guy assumed a proper modern boxing stance (I've even seen this a bit to this day, when I've read comments about some of Rodney King's CMD stuff, which I like).
    5. A more extended guard can afford to be a little lower, and a more extended guard can cause a decent amount of damage without any gloves.

    If you want to address any of these, that'd be cool.
  5. Petter is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/13/2010 6:15pm


     Style: BJJ, judo, rapier

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Some time ago, Kirk posted a link to this article discussing ye olde pugilism guard. There was a long, contentious thread about it.

    My only personal experiences with this come from a couple of Bartitsu classes (note that important caveat: A few classes, not some kind of expertise!), where I notice that

    • the instructor tells us to keep the back hand, as Kirk was saying, “over the mark”—that is, protecting the solar plexus—while the head is guarded by distance, being held way back (except when punching, when the conventional tuck your chin, raise your hand rules apply);
    • the stance, with a fair bit of weight on your back leg, subjectively feels kind of similar to stances used in cane fighting and even rapier fencing.
    [ petterhaggholm.net | blog | essays ]
    [ self defence: general thoughts | bjj: “don’t go to the ground”? ]
    “The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.”
  6. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/13/2010 8:42pm

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    Cut and pasted from one of my posts in the long, contentious thread:
    -------------------
    1) because LPR boxers didn't wear gloves, they did everything the could to avoid impact to their faces. A bare-knuckle punch to the eye-socket could split the socket or seriously damage the eyeball if the knuckles went in deeply enough. No-one has ever wanted to be blinded in one or both eyes, certainly not people who make their living as boxers.

    Glancing contact from sharp knuckles could cut the skin of the forehead and scalp, which would bleed profusely; the blood running down the fighter's face could interfere with his vision, putting him at a serious disadvantage (remember, no medical time-outs or supervising doctors back in the day).

    Without either gloves or mouthguards, boxers' teeth and the insides of their mouths were at serious risk; dental science was not especially advanced during the early-mid 1800s, and quality dental care was very expensive, far beyond the monetary reach of any but the most successful prize-fighters. Get enough of your teeth knocked out under these conditions and you spend the rest of your life eating mush, or trying to chew your steak with a set of wooden molars.

    Much the same dangers applied to the ribs, the throat, the brachial plexus area (which was referred to as the "mark"), etc. For that matter, even solid bare-knuckle punches to the bones of the hands and the muscles of the arms could put a boxer at a serious disadvantage during a fight.

    For these reasons, LPR boxers did not want to be hit any more than they could possibly help it, so

    2) they tended to stand out of distance. By that I mean that the measure (the distance between the two fighters) was generally longer than it is in modern boxing, often so long that for much of a round, fighters could only possibly hit each other by punching off a long, lunging step; such a punch was often referred to as a left lead-off, and it was essentially a committed, power version of the modern jab.

    At that range, there was no imperative need to hold the hands in a high guard position, as that would simply fatigue the arms (remember, a LPR fight could last for hours) and weaken your offensive/defensive capability when the time came. Therefore, they tended to keep their hands fairly low while at the longest range, about waist height, so that they could conserve their strength while still being prepared the raise their guard defensively if their opponent lunged in with a left lead punch.

    Standing at this extremely long range was the safest option defensively, but of course to win the fight you had to engage. As the measure shifted, for example, as two boxers edged towards each other, their hands would come up into the extended guard position shown in the LPR stance pictures. Note that at this point, they are still too far away from each other to be vulnerable to anything but a left lead punch. Simultaneously, they would lean their heads back to maximize the distance between their most vulnerable target and their opponent's fists. At this stage, their defense shifted from sheer distance to presenting a barrier (the extended guard) while keeping as much of a distance advantage as possible by leaning their head back.

    At this range they would punch, parry, duck, etc. much as do modern fighters, but note that these exchanges did not tend to last very long.

    This is the appropriate time to try to answer this question:

    Quote:
    why does the LPR "anti grapple" stance do things that are HORRIBLE IDEAS to avoid grappling?
    You first need to understand that there was no "LPR anti-grapple stance". There was the fighting stance that I've just described, and it was primarily designed as a defense against punches, especially relatively long range punches. The defensive position of the arms and hands changed as I described above, generally raising from the safest distance (where they were often held at waist height) to the mid-chest level as the two fighters entered the orthodox punching range; we might think of that range as being the distance at which they could hit each other with either hand without having to take a lunging step.

    Any closer than that - the body-to-body infighting range - was probably the most dangerous phase of the fight. Standing off, you have a chance to see a punch coming in and to counter it; at close quarters, anyone could be blindsided by an uppercut or a tight hook. Typically, after the exchange of punches described above, one or both fighters would clinch to avoid the risk of further (potentially crippling and/or career-ending) damage in close.

    At the clinch range, obviously, the stance completely changed. There was no "clinching stance" per se; they would stand essentially as wrestlers do, wider base, lower center of gravity, both seeking the leverage advantage that would let them throw their opponent.

    I want to emphasize again that the LPR rules only allowed certain types of throws; hip-throws and trips were the most common techniques at close quarters. Lower-body grips and throws (single or double-leg takedowns, etc.) were not allowed. Also, sacrifice throws and other techniques that involved the thrower dropping his knee, hand or body to the ground were illegal under LPR rules, because they were counted as the thrower "going down" voluntarily.

    So, from the clinch range, typically, they would enter a standing grapple, one fighter would eventually throw the other which ended the round, and then they had a short period of time to return to the center of the ring (the called it "coming to the scratch", which is the origin of the expression "coming up to scratch"). If they both returned to the scratch then the next round would begin, and so-on, until one of them was either unconscious or unable/unwilling to return to the scratch line, in which case the other man won the fight.
  7. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/14/2010 2:15am

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    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post

    Much the same dangers applied to the ribs, the throat, the brachial plexus area (which was referred to as the "mark"), etc.
    Let's try that again; should have read "the celiac plexus area (which was referred to as the 'mark'".
  8. lklawson is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/14/2010 8:03am


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    Quote Originally Posted by CodosDePiedra View Post
    I've heard a few other reasons given, but really haven't researched it much. Anyway,
    I don't disagree a bit. My remarks above were sort of "off the cuff" and just what I consider to be the two biggest reasons (in my opinion, at that particular moment, subject to change depending upon my mood).

    1. Without gloves, less desirable to hit the head with a fist since you can hurt your hand.
    I agree, personally. But (just to head off the nearly inevitable thread-lurker who will wonder about historic "boxer's breaks") I feel that period texts make less of this than some today might consider. Out of all the period texts I've read and/or republished, only one of them makes reference to injury to the hands and that was a passing remark by Fitzsimmons (transitional between LPR and MoQ) and that not even in his own manual.

    So, while I agree, that there is potentially less chance of injury to the hands by hitting the soft squishy targets, it doesn't seem like it was that big a deal during LPR and earlier.

    2. The long amount of time it took to develop pictures led to boxers to use a more casual stance when depicted (but this doesn't make sense for paintings/drawings/woodcuts)
    3. better position for standup grappling (allowed)
    Again, I generally agree.

    4. I think there may have been a social perception of cowardice if a guy assumed a proper modern boxing stance (I've even seen this a bit to this day, when I've read comments about some of Rodney King's CMD stuff, which I like).
    There may be some support for this idea in the terminology. "Bottom" is classically defined as the ability to stand up to the opponent's blows and continue on. IMS, "sand" had the same connotation in period.

    5. A more extended guard can afford to be a little lower, and a more extended guard can cause a decent amount of damage without any gloves.
    Yes. This, and some of the other points you raise, factor in to my (admittedly very generic) statement about the greater range of the fight allowing for a lower guard. I suppose that I should have expanded upon that point, but you have already covered it pretty well with these and with DdlR's following post. :)

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
    Last edited by lklawson; 9/14/2010 8:06am at . Reason: sp
  9. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    9/14/2010 12:04pm

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks, it's good to get some info on the low guard that isn't just rumors.
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