Posted On:8/05/2010 5:18pm
Style: Submission Grappling
Originally Posted by sumito
I have nothing but respect for their teachers and students.
This sounds like the kind of passive/aggressive stuff that comes from Troy. He likes to preface his statements with things like “I respect what you jiu-jitsu and mma guys do…but let me show you how what we do is so much better.” (i.e. we could kick your ass in a “real” fight).
Originally Posted by sumito
However, they do not address life or death scenarios or tactical scenarios like home invasion, office attack, etc in their training.
Home invasion? Office attack? Where do you live or work where this is a serious daily concern for you? This further demonstrates the paranoid mind set of the RBSD practitioner. I remember seeing a DVD for sale somewhere once (Systema maybe) that dealt with defenses vs. an attacker hidden in the backseat of your car wielding piano wires, shoving a plastic bag over your head and trying to suffocate you etc. All I could think is who the hell has this as a serious daily concern? Instead of trying to figure out how to defend against a piano wire wielding attacker hiding in your backseat why not just buy a small flashlight and take two seconds to look in the backseat before you get in if you’re all that worried about it.
Originally Posted by sumito
They don't address the mental state of a crack/meth head or serial criminal with a knife, gun, stick, etc bent on hurting you, or worse. The mental state and skill set needed to respond is drastically different than those taught in a sport based MMA school.
And beating up a guy in a redman suit who doesn’t offer any resistance will prepare you for a crack/meth head or serial criminal with a knife etc.? Sport based training has it’s liabilities but one thing it will do is teach you how to take a hard shot and not mentally collapse. You’ll also realize that in the real world people don’t just fall down the first time that you hit them like the guy in the redman suit. It also tends to give you a more realistic sense of your actual abilities.
Originally Posted by sumito
How else should Troy have responded besides the offer to come down and train to get first hand knowledge, or fight or STFU?
Troy could have handled things a bit better. I don’t blame the guy for getting pissed, I mean who really likes being critiqued especially by a bunch of nameless faceless people on the internet. However issuing challenges, threats, tales of his prowess at ear removal etc. just makes you look bad. If he had just ignored it this whole thread would have gone on for about three pages and would have been long forgotten by now. The other option would have been to come on here and try to keep his cool and address things in a professional manner. If he had toned it down a bit maybe someone would have been more receptive to actually going down there and checking it out. Even if they weren’t impressed they would have come back here and said something along the lines of “Well they seemed like pretty nice guys who really believe in what they’re doing, I have some reservations about their system and probably wouldn’t recommend it but at least they seemed sincere in their beliefs.”
And meanwhile lost in all of this is the fact that as I recall in my original review I said that I didn’t think that Troy’s stuff was all bad. In fact I would encourage anyone who may happen to find themselves in the Phoenix area to check it out for themselves even if it’s just for entertainment value alone. Who knows maybe I’m just a dick and I’m just too blinded by all of that sports based training to be able to tell how great it is. After 20+ years of martial arts training I don’t think so, but what the hell don’t just take my word for it and go see for your self.
My biggest problem comes from some of the delusions that seem to crop up in RBSD training, RDT in particular. The fear based marketing tends to attract a student with a paranoid mentality who wants an answer for any possible scenario and opponent. What should I do in case of a terrorist attack? Home invasion? How do I fight a BJJ fighter? A Boxer? An MMA fighter? Etc. The end result is that they end up telling the students whatever it is that they what to hear so that they feel good about themselves (and continue to pay). Over time they even probably start to believe themselves. And that’s how you eventually end up hearing stuff like “EVEN Mark Kerr couldn’t take me down!...Let me tell you how you handle one of those silly sport fighters….FEROCIOUS FIVE!!!...Sparring like those sport fighters do is just a pointless game, we’re all about LIFE and DEATH survival at ANY COST!!...Kill or be Killed!... We’re too deadly to spar, it has to include biting, eye gouging, and testicle grabbing otherwise forget about it…Taping out in class = death on the street.”etc.
Posted On:8/05/2010 6:49pm
Style: Kyokushin, MMA
Originally Posted by Goldust
Home invasion? Office attack? Where do you live or work where this is a serious daily concern for you?
Posted On:8/05/2010 9:50pm
Style: Karate-knockdown, BJJ
So sumito, are you an instructor at this school/training facility? I ask because you mentioned training in GJJ and JKD, but the only instructor I found on the site with close to that background in Mike.
Please understand, I am not taking any side at this point and I am just curious. Mostly what the styles are that were in my previous post. Mui Tia and Hop kee do.
Posted On:8/06/2010 2:59pm
Originally Posted by sumito
Troy, until very recently, had no idea I was even responding, thinking this thing died a year ago. However, as a student, I wanted to make sure a different perspective was being given, other than from people who live in a different state and who have never even been to the school, weighing in from their keyboard.
Give me some credit, as a 39 year old working professional. I have been courteous and respectful of other peoples views, while trying to clarify comments made from people that have never trained with us. I have a strong martial arts background in Ted Wong JKD (under George Lee), Arnis (Sifu/AMA Guro Billy Bryant) and Gracie JJ (Rorion/Royce/Helio) with Rick Leonard (Former Army Ranger), who was the defensive tactics instructor for the FBI at Quantico. He would go to the Torrence academy for two weeks every year for like 8 years straight, along with hosting seminars in the DC metro area. All of my comments come from an outside view rather than a typical single school student that is simply parroting back tinted rhetoric without any other experience.
Troy never asked his students to "log onto" this forum to defend him or our method of training, but I guess it is time to flood this thread with people that actually have first hand knowledge of what we do, most of who, come from prior MA.
Well, if this is true, then maybe you might want to consult with him before constructing a whole bunch more new content regarding this topic. It makes it more relevant to search engines. You may be hurting him more than helping.
Again, in context...When someone calls you out, you respond. When people talk smack about your school that have never even been in the state, you respond. Troy put it out there, that for those that wanted to come in and train, they were welcome to do so and for those that just wanted to fight, we could accommodate that as well. However, we added the caveat that this is a street fight, not a Vale Tudo/MMA rules fight, and nobody posted.
You respond if you're a high strung individual, like the one's posting on this thread form RBSD.
So if I added the caveat that it would be a gun fight, would you respond?
The whole "street" vs. "mma" thing has been done to death. It's been proven so many times over from the early UFC's that had NO rules.
All it means hearing it again in 2010 is there are more delusional people out there.
As far as RITC goes, again, rules based fighting has limited value in the development of a self defense oriented fighter. Sure, you get to test your Punching/Kicking/Wrestling/Grappling skills but not the rest of the skills which are open to you in a survival scenario like a home invasion scenario. Also, I am in training to compete in the next Dog Brothers "Gathering of the Pack", which will be in March/April, not the one coming up in Sept.
Great. Post vids up from the Dog Bros. gathering where you don't suck and we'll give you more credibility and treat you with more respect.
As I have said multiple times, those schools are all excellent MMA/Sport schools. I have nothing but respect for their teachers and students. However, they do not address life or death scenarios or tactical scenarios like home invasion, office attack, etc in their training, which is what I take exception to. A new student that has seen a few UFC events and thinks, "You know, I want to learn to protect myself and my family from a thug on the street, I should check out an MMA/BJJ school.", will find themselves in a world of hurt where the thug doesn't play by the same rules. Although those skills are grounded in self defense, about a 100 years ago, they are not taught in that way anymore. They are primarily focused on one on one MMA style scenarios. They don't address the mental state of a crack/meth head or serial criminal with a knife, gun, stick, etc bent on hurting you, or worse. The mental state and skill set needed to respond is drastically different than those taught in a sport based MMA school.
You are wrong in that those schools only address MMA style scenarios. They train for fights, which translate into realistic scenarios much better than having a pooch and practicing eye gouges.
We see Krav Maga guys too around lining up outside of cars and bullrushing one another trying to train a "realistic scenario". We laugh at them too.
If by "highly strung individuals" you are referring to people at RDT or Troy sepcificaly, you couldn't be further off base. All of the guys and women that train at RDT are down to earth people that have the same purpose, which is "survival at all costs".
We'll be the judge of that. Read - someone who uses the words "down to earth" and "survival at all costs" in the same sentence qualifies.
As far as relevancy, this goes back to my comment about taking something out of context. We classify martial arts in three ways: exhibition, sport and self defense/survival. The skills needed to execute in each of these categories is different. However, each one generally has three skill types: primary, secondary and tertiary, along with tactical skills, which are used in specific scenarios (similar to the RDT Ferocious Five).
Nice one, Pointdexter. Your skills in "classification" are really appealing to those studying library science.
At RDT we often talk about two topics: pre-existing response pattern and common delivery pattern. These topics addresses the psychology of how humans react under pressure. Realizing that people respond under pressure with the skills they train most often. The goal is to enable them to have a set of tools that can be delivered as consistently and efficiently under stress as possible. By having structured "technique" drills, free form technique drills and open sparring sessions, the students are able to hone their skills.
Actually, we see really good examples of how people react under pressure here. RDT people react under pressure by issuing "eye gouge internet challenges".
We often have people come in that have solid MMA/BJJ skills in weekend seminars either monthly and at least quarterly so students are exposed and able to drill defensive skills against these things as well as drilling these things twice a week in our open sparring sessions.
And we seriously doubt that you have MMA / BJJ people "often coming in" to attend your seminars.
Lastly, it sounds like you are in the Phoenix area. Feel free to come in and train with us for a few sessions.
No, I travel there. When I'm there I train at ACS. I'm tempted to tell you to take your self defense reality BS over and see how it stands up to a challenge match over at that school. But I don't think Trevor would appreciate me funneling whack jobs over to him, even if it would be entertaining.
Posted On:8/06/2010 6:43pm
I blame the media blamers.
You're a scrapper, I like that."-Ronin69
Posted On:8/06/2010 8:24pm
Style: Bicep Curls
In reality do street thugs play patty cake with you? do they wear big red suits? because if they do, your training is very realistic.
Posted On:8/07/2010 2:02am
Style: Judo, ITF, MT
I blame William Gilbert, for starting up this whole modern 'electricity' thing, without which you wouldn't have been able to make this thread.
Bill, you bastard.
Just waiting for the paperboy.
Posted On:8/07/2010 3:18am
As with anything, watching a 2 minute promo video without any context often leads to an erroneous assumptions.
lolol! you suck at making promovideos then!
if you make a PROMOvideo you should have thought beforehand what you will put in there and provide a context and what not.
right now you're just some dumbass making a godawful defense: 'yeah but no, but yes, but no, but..maybe.'
i got an idea: why don't you take a whole week, think what you want to say about this, keep a notebook next to your bed, then, after a week you either post it here.
if you cant think of something sensible after a week, just don't post at all.
Posted On:8/07/2010 3:22am
Style: Muay Thai
man i love the passive aggresive "i have nothing but respect for you guys, buuuuuuut you are all **** and fight like bitches" pay. grow a fucking pair and say it how you mean it cocksmoker. also, your redman suit bullshit is just that, bullshit. you bullshitters!
Posted On:8/07/2010 3:38am
Now let me see here. If the RBD school is getting ... gasp .... bad rankings from Bullshido members, including those who .... actually visited the school .....
Who should we blame? Hmmmmm. Let me think about that. Uhhhhhhhhhh. The school? The school owners? No. That would be too ....... logical .........
So let's blame Bullshido instead.
And then we can go pound someone dressed up in a red padded suit. Because pounding someone in a red padded suit is just so realistic. Well, maybe it isn't to you, but then again you're probably just not looking in the right parts of your city.
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