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  1. Kato is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/14/2002 8:36pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    jeez Boffo...talk about teaching yer grandma to suck eggs...if I want reading lists I'll compile 'em myself. Sheesh, the manners of some people......
  2. Nihilanthic is offline

    Decafinated white belt.

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    Posted On:
    11/14/2002 10:12pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    EMP can be shielded against... metal paneling...

    A grille could also potentially work IIRC...

    Anyway, computerized weapons will be extremely shielded and protected - and be operable with the computers disabled. Sheer toughness is something needed in war machines.

    <Me> John, what do you know about Zen Buddhism? <John> *smacks me*
    <John> I'd have to smack you sometime...
    Katana, on 540 kicks: "Hang from a ceiling fan with both hands. Flail your feet out and ask people to walk into you as you hit their face."
  3. Freddy is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/14/2002 11:21pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Be Happy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    With the new research with e-bombs the shielding will have to be pretty thick to protect from EMF. I personally dont think any computer is 100 % fool proof. Just because of the fact of it having micro chips makes them tooo easily to damage.

    PEACE!
    Ghost of Charles Dickens
  4. Boffo is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/15/2002 6:14am


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Kato,

    Sorry if I came across as a jerk. However, I've done quite a bit of research into European swordplay. The problem is that the duelling techniques of the latter 18th century bear little resemblance to any of the rest of European swordplay. By the time the Victorians got ahold of the sword, it had turned into an extremely ritualized bloodsport. Sort of like a Tae Kwon Do for rich nobles, but a Tae Kwon Do with long pointy needles.

    Much more interesting is the Patton Sabre Combat method invented by George Patton when he was still a horse cavalry officer. Great stuff, albeit rendered obsolete by the machine gun in WWI.

    Yours in arcane acadamia,

    Boffo
  5. SamHarber is offline

    Taking a break

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    Posted On:
    11/15/2002 10:31am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Fencing still has a place in teaching mobility, timing and distance. The downside is that the movement is only one dimensional, not two. Also, modern foils are so whippy that they are impractical as real weapons, but are sufficient for scoring points. Personally I always used a really stiff blade and made sure people knew when I'd got a hit.

    "Not in the face!"
    Taking responsibility for my actions since 1989
  6. Kato is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/17/2002 6:17pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It seems we share a similar interest Boffo, pleasure to meet you ;-).

    I too find the lack of 'realism' with a modern foil ( flick hits arrgh...) frustrating. Thats why I fence Epee *grin*. Having said that I got taken apart on Friday by an out and out foilist just because his technique was awesome.

    You've got me on the Patton sabre combat, I can't find a reference for it anywhere..was it a system of instruction he devised?
  7. Boffo is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/18/2002 4:30pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Patton's sabre style was probably the last sword based style designed for a a Western power. George Patton as a young man had been trained as a cavalry officer, and was also a noted fencer and pistol shot. He was asked by the US army to develop a fighting style and sword for the pre-WWI US cavalry forces.

    What he designed was both a style and a sword. The sword was designed for the thrust, as Patton's tests and battlefield data determined that the horseman's thrust was more lethal than the horseman's chop. Surprisingly, the thrust through the head and upper torse was easier to withdraw than a chop! That was because the fine spring steel used in cavalry swords would get stuck due to suction in the human body, and a slashing sabre couldn't be made with blood grooves, but a stabbing sabre could!

    So the patton sabre was a heavy, straight stabbing weapon designed to be used during the horseman's charge, or in interpersonal combat. Heavy meant that it weighed something like 3-4 pounds, but unlike the cheesy katana replicas and civil war sabres you find in shows, it feels light in the hand. Real patton sabres today are worth hundreds of dollars to a collector.

    The action patton sabre methods on the ground include stances that would seem unfamiliar to a sport fencer today. They fought 'in the round', and the long, artful lunge found in sport fencing wasn't taught much. That lunge was dangrous on a muddy, slippery battlefield with poor footing thanks to rain, blood, and the effect of boots and hooves. Instead they used arm movement and smaller steps to make their 'point'. There was also basic instruction for use of the hilt for punching and grappling for corp-a-corp.

    Anyway, field tests of this style and the weapon really impressed the period cavalry dominant US army. What meagre cavalry forces the US had were re-equipped with the patton sabre, along with the M1911 automatic pistol. The English at the same time came up with a very similiar method of fighting from horseback, and pre-WWI English and American horse sabres are nearly identical. This is either a curious example of parallel development or the result of intercommunication between the Americans and English or even the result of spies passing on information. Since we weren't formal allies of England at this time, any of these answers could be true.

    Alas for Patton, his early work in developing and documenting his new style (complete with training manuals and syllabuses) ran right into the deafening power of static machine gun nests in WWI. American involvement during this war meant France, and that meant trenches. Since then the Americans have stuck to knives and smatchets and bayonets.

    Yet the sword lived on in the battlefield for a time in other venues.

    But with the incredibly wide spread AK-47 and the ability for any machine shop on the planet to farm them out, the sword is now a passed remnant of an earlier and more personal time of war



    Edited by - Boffo on November 18 2002 15:32:22
  8. Kato is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/18/2002 10:22pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Cool...thankyou!
    The preference of point over edge has precedent ( in historical swordplay)in this country. Apparently us slashy Brits didnt like foppish Europeans coming over with their strange new-fangled pointy sticks.

    Until they started leaving nice neat little holes through us.
  9. Boffo is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/18/2002 11:24pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Cool...thankyou!
    You are welcome!

    The preference of point over edge has precedent ( in historical swordplay)in this country. Apparently us slashy Brits didnt like foppish Europeans coming over with their strange new-fangled pointy sticks.

    Until they started leaving nice neat little holes through us.
    Err... it doesn't quite work that way. The English longsword decreased in popularity due to the increase in nobles selecting Italian and French fighting masters over English ones, not because of the effectiveness of the weapon styles.

    In otherwords, the Italians and French set up McDojos (or as they were called then, McSalles), and convinced everyone else that their fighting style was superior. Remember, the myth of the superiority of the rapier over the longsword is as accurate as the myth of striking arts over grappling arts.

    Anything else is the opinion of modern fencing masters making uninformed generalizations based off of limited knowledge. It is like me, a black belt in Tae Kwon Do, giving an opinion on the effectiveness of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu versus Machado Jiu-Jitsu. In other words, I have as much a clue about Jiu-Jitsu as modern fencers have about Elizabethian fencing.
  10. Dorje is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/19/2002 12:35am


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    >boffo,

    wow that relly interesting, i had actually never heard of the patton-sabre before, but they look rather cool. i suppose they are a tad more stiff than they look. http://www.gundersonmilitaria.com/swordpattonlfc1918.jpg (maby someone should steal the pictue
    before he notices the traffic and changes the link).

    and allthough i think you are absolutely correct in thinking that cavallry got outdated by the machinegun. the real deathblow probably came at the beginning of ww1 when the polish tried to use their cavallery against the german panzar and armoured units (i belive i dont have to tell you how that ended). after that, most countries decomissioned whatever cavalery they had.
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