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  1. Scientific is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/02/2010 8:21pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    Now there is a great comparison of discordant vs. concordant warrior codes: Mongolian vs. Greecian. Look at ancient Sparta, the spartan code, and the Battle of Thermopylae.

    The Mongol empire didn't last very long....a handful of decades, before it splintered (and certainly did some cultural pollination). Greek nations and city states survived centuries and form the basis of much of modern civilization today!
    The problem today is that socialism suppressed original pre-Christian Greco-Roman political philosophy during the 19th century, leading to a collectivist mindset that believes in human sacrifice to the communist state (e.g. gun-control advocates disarming people for statistical purposes, i.e. so if you get killed then it was for "the greater good" etc.). That's why in 1876, US v. Cruikshank featured the Supreme Court in ruling that people have no right to bear arms to defend themselves-- only to defend the country-- which is why we're here on this board resorting to ancient Asian methods against similar regimes, i.e. bare hands and makeshift-weapons, since self-defense law disarms the indvidual supposedly for "the greater good." To liberals, human beings are mere statistics-- while they deny REAL statistics, since crime-rates universally vary inversely with gun-rights. So we're the victim's of Utopian wishful-thinkers, who'd rather sacrifice our lives and safety to their dream-world vision, than live in the REAL world.

    (This is where Penn&Teller likewise had their heads up their asses when they said that "people should use guns instead of practicing martial arts;" they obviously confuse ideology with REALITY, ignoring restrictive gun-laws simply because they DISAGREE with them; but everyone knows that Pell Jilette's a dime-a-dozen shill for the CATO institute, so it comes as no surprise that rather than open his fucking eyes, he'd rather just preach a libertarian sermon and CLOSE everyone else's).

    So it seems we have to watch out for ideologues on both sides of the political spectrum; they don't call them "intellectual morons" for nothing.
    Last edited by Scientific; 8/02/2010 8:54pm at .
  2. Dsimon3387 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/02/2010 8:24pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    I disagree...a desire to be "left alone" has little to do with empire building and you just made an association between Genghis Khan and Hitler, invoking Godwin's Law. Hitler used the same argument to invade his neighbors.

    In any regard, both Hitler's and the Khan's "consolidated Empires" lasted barely a generation in each case, and both warrior codes (look at the SS and their wickedly evil "warrior code") led to the total destruction of many cultures. Sure, fruits of cultural germination were borne of that, but at the cost of what unnecessary bloodshed?


    Don't look now but you're beginning to see my point, I think.


    So in the end the Yasa of Ghengis Khan was kind of arbitrary depending on his whims....again...Hitleresque. I guess the best martial codes were not the ones dictated by totalitarian regime, since they are more like Machiavellian in nature...meant to protect the regime and not the culture itself.
    the mongols did not destroy cultures, they killed many people.... they also fucked bitches which is why so many genetics have mongol dna in them... fact is the mongols were assimilated this did them in. for example, the chinese empror was a mongol during one of the dynasties why? because the chinese assimilated and aculterated the mongols,,, they became chinese.

    mongols were defeated by human nature... the need to have a culture and the finer institutions in life like government, restaurants, Museums, cities, etc.
    This thread never was a high quality conversation - My friend vern Gilbert on the William Acquier thread.

    The fight in question having started over who owns which piece of rubble. Nicko1;2233174 On the Acquier Kim Fiasco slash thread.
  3. Dsimon3387 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/02/2010 8:28pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    I like where we've gone, I don't consider it a REAL digression since it all comes back to warrior codes. The OP was "is chivalry BS" and that is a very deep topic... but I am glad you're here.

    You still made the association without realizing it, between Ghenghis's and Hitler's shared "personal struggle" and the bloody history that followed. The parallels between "Mein Kampf" and Ghenghis' bio are clear. And certainly neither justified the genocide that followed, caused by warrior codes that were executions of authoritarian policy.

    Their responses were both to systematically annihilate people and subjugate people who didn't want to be conquered and that is morally wrong, and would not fit in most modern martial arts "codes". I was probably wrong if I suggested Alexander = good, Ghengis = bad I will admit that is a fallacy on my part.

    But Alexander and Ghenghis did NOT share the same background and that showed in their campaigns...Alexander was thoroughly versed in the classics, was tutored by Aristotle of all people...I'll still argue his grasp on universal values was greater than the mighty Khan's, whose warrior code did appear to be more like Hitler's (kill them if they resist, or kill them all anyway if they're "dirtier" than we are or useless in combat) than, say, an idealization like the Jedi or the Arthurian Knights (who certainly had character flaws, but it didn't lead them to having policies of merely murdering their neighbors when necessary to advance their causes).



    Well I could charge you with your own cultural bias (maybe you are Mongolian?). At least being honest about our biases we can get around them constructively. I admit a Westerner's cultural bias but I have also have a great love of Eastern history and philosophy, particularly Asian.


    I didn't intend that, sorry.


    Maybe you're right but now you're being a Mongolian Horde apologist, trying to make the brutal Khan look more friendly to modern eyes. It's funny that history is written by the victor, but Mongolian history is still considered pretty un-gentlemanly compared to Western forms of warfare.



    I answered that question in a previous post: honorable martial artists are supposed to serve their fellow man/woman. Knowledge and defense...
    alexander was also the greatest general that ever lived.... Hannibal was impressive.
    This thread never was a high quality conversation - My friend vern Gilbert on the William Acquier thread.

    The fight in question having started over who owns which piece of rubble. Nicko1;2233174 On the Acquier Kim Fiasco slash thread.
  4. W. Rabbit is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/02/2010 8:44pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dsimon3387 View Post
    the mongols did not destroy cultures
    Untrue. You will never, ever read about all the societies, large and small, that were engulfed by the Mongol expansion. The history of many of them was wiped out. That is why they call it a "Horde".

    Quote Originally Posted by Dsimon3387 View Post
    killed many people.... they also fucked bitches
    This is true.
  5. W. Rabbit is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/02/2010 8:56pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scientific View Post
    That's why in 1876, US v. Cruikshank featured the Supreme Court in ruling that people have no right to bear arms to defend themselves-- only to defend the country--
    US v. Cruikshank involves nothing of the sort. That case is a scar on racial tensions in America, and the ruling tossed out a federal indictment of white farmers who had conspired to keep blacks from voting. The ruling has nothing to do with gun rights, and you're trying to hijack it to make some point about liberals and guns. Newsflash: liberals own guns too.

    92 U.S. 542 (1876), argued 3031 Mar. and 30 Apr. 1875, decided 27 Mar. 1876 by vote of 9 to 0; Waite for the Court, Clifford concurring. The Cruikshank case arose after an armed white force in Reconstruction Louisiana killed more than one hundred black men over a disputed gubernatorial election. Three white men involved in the 1873 Colfax Massacre were found guilty of violating section 6 of the Enforcement Act of 1870, which forbade conspiracies to deny the constitutional rights of any citizen. The convicted defendants appealed on the grounds that the indictments were faulty.
    ...
    The Cruikshank opinion encouraged violence in the Reconstruction South and is one of several Supreme Court decisions that marked the nation's retreat from Reconstruction.
    http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/script...l=92&invol=542
    http://www.answers.com/topic/united-states-v-cruikshank

    Quote Originally Posted by Scientific View Post
    since crime-rates are universally vary INVERSELY with gun-rights.
    .
    Crime rates vary proportionally and more directly with poverty rates. Crime rates have been lowered by gun control law ENFORCEMENT.
  6. Dsimon3387 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/02/2010 9:30pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    Untrue. You will never, ever read about all the societies, large and small, that were engulfed by the Mongol expansion. The history of many of them was wiped out. That is why they call it a "Horde".


    This is true.
    why Ill murda ya (said in Elmer fuddese).

    Wabbit I do not consider myself a social Darwanist however one simply must ask and consider how many of the worlds great civilizations the Mongols actually destroyed.... More to the point they came, caused havoc and if the culture was worth existing, it acculterated the Mongols. They never succeded in destroying china for example and not Jpan either!
    This thread never was a high quality conversation - My friend vern Gilbert on the William Acquier thread.

    The fight in question having started over who owns which piece of rubble. Nicko1;2233174 On the Acquier Kim Fiasco slash thread.
  7. W. Rabbit is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/02/2010 9:33pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scientific View Post
    So it seems we have to watch out for ideologues on both sides of the political spectrum; they don't call them "intellectual morons" for nothing.
    Don't look now but you just tried to hijack a discussion about honor codes and the martial arts with some bullshit about liberals trying to ban guns, and you used a random USSC ruling that happened to involve the 2nd Amendment in a unrelated, tangential way to do it.

    You sound like an ideologue who wanted to rant about liberals and gun control, Googled "supreme court 2nd amendment" and posted US v. Cruikshank.

    Why didn't you refer, instead to the barely month old McDonald vs. the City of Chicago, IL, or 2008's District of Columbia vs. Heller, which both reaffirmed 2nd amendment rights completely in contradiction to your claim. Not to mention case law going further back.


    http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/09pdf/08-1521.pdf
    Last edited by W. Rabbit; 8/02/2010 9:43pm at . Reason: Because you didn't know, that's why.
  8. W. Rabbit is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/02/2010 9:40pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dsimon3387 View Post
    why Ill murda ya (said in Elmer fuddese).

    Wabbit I do not consider myself a social Darwanist however one simply must ask and consider how many of the worlds great civilizations the Mongols actually destroyed.... More to the point they came, caused havoc and if the culture was worth existing, it acculterated the Mongols. They never succeded in destroying china for example and not Jpan either!
    The Horde definitely left its seed across Eurasia...literally, of that I am in 100% agreement. It's historically significant yet very sad to consider the cost.

    And its great you bring up Japan and China...they suffered losses but their own martial cultures persisted to survive to the present day!! The same thing can be said about the civilized European warrior codes like chivalry. The fact that these codes survive at all (especially in pop culture) is a testament to the more civilized warrior codes surviving and the more horde-ish warrior codes dying off. Darwin at his best.

    How many great civilizations might have come about had the Mongols not "horded" them? Yes, the same could be said for countless warrior-tribe philosophies, but the Mongols (even if over-represented in some of histories atrocities) still hold the title of "Horde" because of how they advanced, like brutal pre-modern Blitzkrieg with spears instead of tanks.
  9. Dsimon3387 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/02/2010 9:57pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    The Horde definitely left its seed across Eurasia...literally, of that I am in 100% agreement. It's historically significant yet very sad to consider the cost.

    And its great you bring up Japan and China...they suffered losses but their own martial cultures persisted to survive to the present day!! The same thing can be said about the civilized European warrior codes like chivalry. The fact that these codes survive at all (especially in pop culture) is a testament to the more civilized warrior codes surviving and the more horde-ish warrior codes dying off. Darwin at his best.

    How many great civilizations might have come about had the Mongols not "horded" them? Yes, the same could be said for countless warrior-tribe philosophies, but the Mongols (even if over-represented in some of histories atrocities) still hold the title of "Horde" because of how they advanced, like brutal pre-modern Blitzkrieg with spears instead of tanks.
    Rabbit I know we can consider anything more than two people in a room a culture, and I know there are great cultures that are not in this world so appear somewhat unendowed.... like the Australian Aborines, but in fact that culture exists on many levels and is spiritually endowed which is why it exists.... BUT some groups did not have the environment nor the survival instinct to create a culture of any lasting worth.

    When you say the Hordes interferred I can't brook that. when people ascend to power and have nothing to show for it except bounty they are deficient. Even a group like the Spartans have to be seen as a part of a whole nexus of post Mycenian and eventual Hellonistic cultures that interacted with military and cultural achievments.... some of which have been mentioned on this thread.

    the Japanese treatment of the Enu, and the destruction of other groups are a somewhat darwinistic process. A strong culture survives... want to see ancient Rome? look at our institutions today via Europe. No it isn't pretty but te Mongols served a purpose of sorts, I do not think they destroyed anything other than proverbial DO Do birds.
    This thread never was a high quality conversation - My friend vern Gilbert on the William Acquier thread.

    The fight in question having started over who owns which piece of rubble. Nicko1;2233174 On the Acquier Kim Fiasco slash thread.
  10. Dsimon3387 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/02/2010 9:58pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    The Horde definitely left its seed across Eurasia...literally, of that I am in 100% agreement. It's historically significant yet very sad to consider the cost.

    And its great you bring up Japan and China...they suffered losses but their own martial cultures persisted to survive to the present day!! The same thing can be said about the civilized European warrior codes like chivalry. The fact that these codes survive at all (especially in pop culture) is a testament to the more civilized warrior codes surviving and the more horde-ish warrior codes dying off. Darwin at his best.

    How many great civilizations might have come about had the Mongols not "horded" them? Yes, the same could be said for countless warrior-tribe philosophies, but the Mongols (even if over-represented in some of histories atrocities) still hold the title of "Horde" because of how they advanced, like brutal pre-modern Blitzkrieg with spears instead of tanks.
    Rabbit I know we can consider anything more than two people in a room a culture, and I know there are great cultures that are not in this world so appear somewhat unendowed.... like the Australian Aborines, but in fact that culture exists on many levels and is spiritually endowed which is why it exists.... BUT some groups did not have the environment nor the survival instinct to create a culture of any lasting worth.

    When you say the Hordes interferred I can't brook that. when people ascend to power and have nothing to show for it except bounty they are deficient. Even a group like the Spartans have to be seen as a part of a whole nexus of post Mycenian and eventual Hellonistic cultures that interacted with military and cultural achievments.... some of which have been mentioned on this thread.

    the Japanese treatment of the Enu, and the destruction of other groups are a somewhat darwinistic process. A strong culture survives... want to see ancient Rome? look at our institutions today via Europe. No it isn't pretty but te Mongols served a purpose of sorts, I do not think they destroyed anything other than proverbial DO Do birds.
    This thread never was a high quality conversation - My friend vern Gilbert on the William Acquier thread.

    The fight in question having started over who owns which piece of rubble. Nicko1;2233174 On the Acquier Kim Fiasco slash thread.
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