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  1. Hiro Protagonist is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/06/2010 9:21am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That is because of my bad English, sorry.

    The German term "Leibeigener" translates as both "thrall" and "serf".
    It was used until the early 19th century in German-speaking territories.
    I think English knows the term "serfdom", but it's not exactly the same thing. Serfs in Germany would be correctly translated as "Hörige", AFAIK. The vast majority of the rural population were "Leibeigene" (="thralls"), though, as far as I can recall.

    That's why I said we should maybe pre-define our vocabulary, lest we want to sink into endless semantical battles. :read2:

    You're the expert, so I am willing to accept any semantical distinctions you apply.
    Last edited by Hiro Protagonist; 8/06/2010 9:27am at .
  2. Styygens is online now
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    Posted On:
    8/06/2010 8:15pm


     Style: BBT/BJJ/CJKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Moenstah View Post
    You might but it requires one to read primary sources, or books about them. The problem is: what medieval person do you mean? subdivided in factors as

    - time;
    - place/country/location;
    - class.

    For clergymen and women, it is obviously the easiest, since they did most of the writing for most of the middle ages (until the late medieval period). From other classes, it's much harder (sorry, I use class, because i cannot think of the proper english word for it: Stand (germ.) or état (fr.) I mean of course)

    ...

    About the piety of knights and their moral ethos: other posters, myself included, already stated that their morals didn't count for much. Rightly criticized by the Church (Urban II and Bernard de Clairvaux, my lil' sexually frustrated man, you).

    A nice example from the Rule of the Teutonic Knights about their piety

    A brother is required to know the Pater Noster and the Ave Maria.
    - he may learn it in the vernacular;
    - he has 6 months the time to learn it;
    - if he has not learned it, he gets a brother assigned to him to teach it.

    I mean, for God's sake: the two most well known prayers back then! Praying wasn't high on their priority list.

    Anyway: the medieval piety was much more formal and ritual of character then ours. The personal relation between oneself and God was very weak. Christians back then relied alot on the intercession on their behalf by saints.
    Yeash.

    I'm just popping in to check-up on the debate. I see it's gotten rather technical. Which I find very entertaining and educational. Please continue.

    When I said that is difficult for the modern person to comprehend the piety of a medieval person, I was being polite -- and deliberately vague -- in response to a comment from Dsimon.

    It's been my experience that there is a tendency among modern people to believe that people in historical era thought and acted just like us. They didn't. In many cases, their thought patterns were horribly alien to us. I argued with a woman once about the famous Spartan mothers' admonition, "Come back with your shield, or on it." She insisted no mother would ever say that. She couldn't fathom the context of the times and clung to the notion that her 20th Century (this was '97) Middle Class American viewpoint was universal.

    In the same way, I would venture the generalization that for the medieval mind, the existence of God was a given. Individual expressions of piety, such as prayer, or church attendance, or entering the religious life, may have differed, but their society was not secular.

    But, I digress. Still I think it is important for readers to be wary of "provicialism" and attribute modern mores to historical persons. As you said, we must read the primary sources and other material and try to place ourselves in their shoes.
  3. Styygens is online now
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    Posted On:
    8/06/2010 8:24pm


     Style: BBT/BJJ/CJKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Pilgrim View Post
    Very interesting; the point is, regardless of whether it really existed or not, was this a warrior band, or was it a "men band", which is something very common for indogermanic peoples all over Europe.

    The distinction is, did they set up rules for fighting, or did they set up rules for generally living together?

    That would make the distinction between a warrior community, and a community with a very advanced warrior culture, at least for me.
    My first inclination was to say that "man bands" were probably "fighting bands" But then I considered that the cultural phenomenon you are describing was likely an impetus toward the development of monastic communities during the Middle Ages.

    I'm going to use those three very important words, "I don't know."

    I don't have access to all my books on the Viking Era right now, but I don't believe I have much on the Jomsvikings specifically. I will have to look into this further and get back to you.

    The "rules" I've seen attributed to the Jomsvikings are definitely regulating living conditions, how much they directly relate to fighting is an unknown. They do seem to have imposed some discipline upon the band.
  4. Metsudragon is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/06/2010 9:36pm


     Style: Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JKDChick View Post
    The Celts were about the only warrior culture that considered women to have their own honor-price and be full members of the tribe. We also almost beat the Romans at their own game (and would have if people had just listened to Caratacus) and eventually made them build a wall to keep us out.

    There's a bit of evidence that some Philipino tribes felt the same way about their women, cause hey, if we have to send a fucking fighting party out with them every time they go for water -- geez, we got better things to do here!

    And of course the Spartans trained their girls to fight because only warrior women made warrior babies.

    Kid, didn't go through the whole thread to see if you mentioned them, but it seemed like you forgot the Dahomey Amazons from Africa.

    http://image.absoluteastronomy.com/i...ey_amazon2.jpg

    as for this...

    So, should a practitioner of martial arts adhere to any sort of code of chivalry or behavior or work to defend what is right, just, and good, or should we simply learn how to attack, kill, maim, and slay without any regard for other people so that we can take what we want and be happy that no one can take it from us?
    I think this is best left up to the individual, Pilgrim and Moenstah have basically done overkill as far as all the various uses of chivalry and the like so I wont even go there as they're much more learned in that area.

    But I think there's two little things that stops the bolded part dead in its
    tracks.

    1. Laws, which will have your ass in jail faster than you can say "what?" if you kill/maim/slay

    2. Guns, I think Guns pretty much erased the notion of "no one can take it from us".
    Last edited by Metsudragon; 8/06/2010 9:41pm at .
  5. Moenstah is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/07/2010 4:16am


     Style: 空手/HNIR

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Metsudragon View Post
    2. Guns, I think Guns pretty much erased the notion of "no one can take it from us".
    from my cold dead hands

    Sorry, couldn't resist.


    Nice posts Styygens. Of course in medieval society man had less of a direct contact with God (except through sacraments). But their belief in God and the Devil was very real and very literal.
  6. Lebell is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/07/2010 4:52am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    if you like things such as leibeigener, free/unfree and guns, you should definately read up on the prussian army.

    YouTube- ‪Friderich Grosse-Hohenfriedberger Marsch‬‎
  7. Moenstah is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/07/2010 5:13am


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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That's off topic, and Fritz the Great was a fag soooooo NEXT! :P

    Besides: „Östlich der Elbe beginnt die asiatische Steppe" in the words of the wise Adenauer
  8. Lebell is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/07/2010 5:22am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Moenstah View Post
    That's off topic, and Fritz the Great was a fag soooooo NEXT! :P
    it's called homosexual, not fag.
    i hope your children will all get the gaydisease so it will teach you something about being tolerant to the mentally ill.
  9. Rock Ape is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/07/2010 8:47am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Whilst I guess this has been a semi serious discussion, why is in the investigations forum ?
    "To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".

    ~Ella Wheeler
  10. Hiro Protagonist is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/07/2010 12:04pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So Rabbit cannot crap it up.

    But, yeah, I am fully in it.

    Semantical pre-definitions, so we are sure everyone talks about the same thing?

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