Police grappling (aikido based?)

**kcvmac** · Posted On: 7/30/2010 3:19pm

Judo, Aikido, and BJJ are all just "falling from a great height practice." "He fell" is the best way to describe it.

**daishi** · Posted On: 7/30/2010 9:18pm

Originally Posted by Lu Tze

Yeah, because having someone smash their head on the pavement and spill their fucking brains all over the floor is A-OK.

He was resisting your honour!

Stop resisting! Stop resisting!

**BKR** · Posted On: 7/30/2010 11:24pm

I watched a few full force "red suit" drills at the academy where I worked. The LEOs here tend to be in pretty good shape, as in lifting and cardio. They basically describe jerking perps off their feet and putting them on the ground, how hard depending on how much resistance they get.

Ben

**Diesel_tke** · Posted On: 7/31/2010 7:31am

Almost every use of force I have had involved me getting a takedown. A few on grass and a few on concrete. There have been a couple who had broken ribs, jaws, and noses. Concrete is a muthafucker.

**mrtnira** · Posted On: 7/31/2010 9:37pm

Related to the question of Aikido and police training, 30 (+) years ago the Koga method was taught when I went through police reserve training in California. The method was developed by a Los Angeles cop by the name of Robert Koga. His books and DVDs are still available, although some of the book titles are out of print and available through used book searches.

The Koga Institute has a web site, and it includes descriptions of methods, how the method was developed, etc.

http://www.kogainst.com/about.html

I suspect the answer to your question will vary based upon era and locality. Several people have already stated that, but dating an aikido link back to a specific place, time, and the name of the system originator may assist you in your search for clarification.

**BKR** · Posted On: 7/31/2010 10:04pm

Originally Posted by diesel_tke

Almost every use of force I have had involved me getting a takedown. A few on grass and a few on concrete. There have been a couple who had broken ribs, jaws, and noses. Concrete is a muthafucker.

That's why the deputy (a Sgt.) who was doing the training was wearing a the red suit. A few of the trainees were in my Judo classes, and they threw him full force onto the concrete gym floor (he was resisting full force).

Good thing he had on the helmet/face cage thingy.

Ben

**gregaquaman** · Posted On: 8/01/2010 12:22am

Originally Posted by diesel_tke

Almost every use of force I have had involved me getting a takedown. A few on grass and a few on concrete. There have been a couple who had broken ribs, jaws, and noses. Concrete is a muthafucker.

This is the reason I use Vascular constriction either to squeeze a persons head off like a pimple or to just gain control. Because I have some sort of control over how a person falls.

I use fear and pain compliance to just crush them down into a seated position.

I go for a sleeper or a standing side neck submission and osotogari. (Looks like a triangle choke with your hands and I always call it a shoulder lock.)

But there are two types of force used.

!. Is defending yourself which is the aplication of BJJ or boxing or whatever.

2. The other is arresting controlling and removing people which is the use of standding armlocks Akido JJJ or whatever style uses them. It comes at a cost to efficiency but you still need a working knowledge of them.

I would just like to add i dont think the goose neck is the best tool for the job in standing armlocks. I allways go for arm behind back which I think is safer

**DARPAChief** · Posted On: 8/01/2010 1:35am

Originally Posted by Cango

From what little bit I have seen, alot of the arrest tactics seem to be Aikido based, with the comealong/gooseneck being the center of it, and everything else kinda branching off. I was wondering if anyone who had been through similar training had any comments on its usefulness/realism in their experience. I'm trying to get an idea if this is going to be a wonderful epiphany or an eyerolling exercise in fantasy.

I've trained with some people who've broken or seriously sprained their wrists and it was very devastating - they were done for the day and took months to get 100% again. Of course there's people who're unusually flexible/pain-resistant, so it's good that you can transititon from the locks into takedowns and throws and vice versa. It means you can engage from a farther distance than with more conventional Judo techniques, so hopefully it'll give you some more options.

**gregaquaman** · Posted On: 8/01/2010 2:37am

Originally Posted by DARPAChief

I've trained with some people who've broken or seriously sprained their wrists and it was very devastating - they were done for the day and took months to get 100% again. Of course there's people who're unusually flexible/pain-resistant, so it's good that you can transititon from the locks into takedowns and throws and vice versa. It means you can engage from a farther distance than with more conventional Judo techniques, so hopefully it'll give you some more options.

And a lot of people you deal with are not fighting you to kill you. Quite often you will get them using their angry face but as soon as you become serious they will turn out to become pussies. As a proffesional you cannot just go apeshit on everybody who uses a bit of passive resistance while saying they are a biker.
It is just different to self defence and you need to develop a different set of tactics.

So yes it will look like a LARP fest but you have to go through those motions anyway.

WAR STORY WARNING..

One of the first people I serioulsy hurt was when I was new to security. He was going off his nut facing off six security guards. He was telling us that he was all sorts of ninja and that he will destroy us all.

I apropriatly shat myself. I was thinking that if this guy could front six big dudes he was a serious threat. So when the time came I went at him hammer and tongs. About 3 seconds in he was crying and screaming about how badly I had hurt him. I diddnt need to go that route but I was too new to realise that.

Since then I have found that even though the whole standing arm lock Akido thing dosent work well against a determened opponant it is still used more effectivly than anything else I have used because most people are not really trying to fight me.

**DARPAChief** · Posted On: 8/01/2010 10:07am

Originally Posted by gregaquaman

Since then I have found that even though the whole standing arm lock Akido thing dosent work well against a determened opponant it is still used more effectivly than anything else I have used because most people are not really trying to fight me.

That's interesting; I would have thought people "not really trying" wouldn't merit handling in the first place. I'm not familiar with anyone's protocol but considering what happens when a hyperextension goes from the degree of pain submission into really damaging the joint might be uh, bad. I think it's a little disingenous to write them off as just a trick for stubborn people. After all, you are crippling someone at that point.