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  1. danno is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/29/2010 5:29pm

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by wonko221 View Post
    1) if you feel their strength, it is because you're opposing it. When they push, redirect their movement or fade from it. When you feel their power persisting, it's because you're opposing it, even if you don't realize it.
    2) if you encounter their strength while attempting a submission, you have attempted it while they are in an architecturally sound position.
    um.... kiiiiinda. these are sort of obvious things which are maybe described with a little too much abstraction. i'd put it more this way:

    1) there are often times when you could use 100% of your strength and you'll achieve nothing (e.g. thrashing about randomly, using a bicep curl as an armbar defense). that means it's a waste of time, and bad technique. no point trying to push through a brick wall, find a way to walk around it.

    2) you ain't got the sub on right. adjust or go for something else.
  2. danno is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/29/2010 6:52pm

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    sure, i just thought your first description was getting a little weird when you started talking about coils and whatnot, it may confuse some people.

    these are important principles you're hitting on, and something that should be learned as early as possible.

    we take advantage of anatomical weaknesses in the human body to perform joints locks and strangles. but to achieve this in the first place, we must gain a superior position which puts our opponent at a mechanical disadvantage.

    in other words, "position before submission".

    efficiency is also extremely important. you should always have the goal of using less energy than your opponent to achieve the same goals.

    we should always strive to use techniques which will work on larger, stronger opponents. i suggest that when grappling smaller people, we use as little energy as possible to win, so that your skills improve.

    listen to what saulo has to say at 5:40 here:

    YouTube- Saulo Ribeiro: Teaching Jiu-Jitsu

    kano also has a few things to say:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jigoro Kano
    Judo is the way of the highest or most efficient use of both physical and mental energy

    ...

    A main feature of the art is the application of the principles of non-resistance and taking advantage of the opponent's loss of equilibrium

    ...

    Maximum Efficiency with Minimum Effort

    ...

    Usually it had been him that threw me. Now, instead of being thrown, I was throwing him with increasing regularity. I could do this despite the fact that he was of the Kito-ryu school and was especially adept at throwing techniques. This apparently surprised him, and he was quite upset over it for quite a while. What I had done was quite unusual. But it was the result of my study of how to break the posture of the opponent. It was true that I had been studying the problem for quite some time, together with that of reading the opponent's motion. But it was here that I first tried to apply thoroughly the principle of breaking the opponent's posture before moving in for the throw...
    kuzushi:

    Quote Originally Posted by wikipedia
    Kuzushi (崩し:くずし?) is a Japanese term for unbalancing an opponent in the martial arts.

    The noun comes from the intransitive verb, kuzusu, meaning to level, pull down, or demolish. As such, it is refers to not just an unbalancing, but the process of getting an opponent into a position where his stability, and hence ability to regain compromised balance, is destroyed.

    In judo, it is considered an essential principle and the first of three stages to a successful throwing technique: kuzushi, tsukuri (fitting or entering) and kake (execution).

    Kuzushi is important to many styles of Japanese martial arts, especially those derived from, or influenced by, Ju Jutsu training methods. Judo, Shodokan Aikido and Wadō-ryū karate are examples of arts that can be found in the latter category. [1]

    The methods of effecting kuzushi depend on maai (combative distance) and other circumstances. It can be achieved using tai sabaki (body positioning and weak lines), taking advantage of the opponents actions (push when pulled, pull when pushed), atemi (strikes), or a combination of all three.

    There are three primary ways of applying kuzushi in judo:

    * direct action (e.g. pulling or pushing while entering for a throw);
    * inducing opponent's action (e.g. a feint or combination attack);
    * direct action by opponent (e.g. a counter throw).
    everything above is pretty fundamental stuff.

    i'd like to add, however, that strength is sometimes necessary. there may be times when perfect technique must be executed with maximum effort. i don't see that said very often.
  3. MichaelDescado is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/29/2010 7:40pm


     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I wanna start by saying that I didn’t really look to see what forum this thread was in, so my response was pretty much my standard “make a joke” kind of thing. The “coil” comment struck me as funny, and characteristic of an Aikido mindset in the same league as “unbendable arms” and “earth axis grounding”. Given that this is a place for the serious discussion of technique, however, I apologize for not treating it as such. I have been called on it, and I respectfully acknowledge my mistake.

    That being said, I’ll lend the little bit of wisdom I can. The (literal) graph posted above by Uncle Skippy is extremely general in my opinion, yet ultimately correct. Skill can indeed trump strength and size. At the same time though, it’s somewhat misleading simply because of what constitutes “skill”.

    To put it bluntly, (and perhaps redundantly), if two guys of the same skill are pitted against one another, the bigger guy will win. This is a stereotypical declaration—much like Skippy’s graph—but there are a host of other factors applicable to the individual which make generalizations impossible.

    First, what one person calls “skill”, another would consider an upper level of prowess that most average Joes never ascend to. In 2010, there are now individuals who have been training combatively effective grappling for just as long as I’ve been training martial arts, (both traditional and MMA). Their entire lives have been devoted to this, (at least in part), and for them, size is indeed a factor that can be overcome.

    But how many of us are competition level grapplers? Not many, and in that respect, I think you have to accept the fact that the new guy in your BJJ class, (who weights 260lbs and has a college wrestling background), is going to be able to force a submission (or escape from a submissions) a guy 40 pounds lighter could not.

    My point is, I submit that it’s unfair to say things like “Arkanscott’s technique is sloppy” solely because he’s getting beat by bigger, stronger guys. Remember, most of the time when someone is relaying an experience like this, they’re talking about people they work out with; thus, the fount of instruction is the same.

    A huge part of in-school grappling (and ground fighting in general) has as much to do with mindset as it does skill. I’ve been tapped by smaller, less skilled guys simply because I was scared… or winded, or hung over. At the same time, I’ve tapped much bigger guys because I wasn’t. This may be speaking to my own inexperience in the competitive martial arts arena, yet (as I mentioned before) I’ll offer up what I can. These are things that have helped me with bigger guys.

    1. Relaxation: Being confronted by size and/or strength often causes people to freak out and panic, (and on a purely evolutionary level), resulting in unwanted tension. At your (assumed) skill level, Arkanscott, you probably don’t perceive this as a factor, but I submit that it still often is—even at the top tier. People “get” force, and they respond with force. The hard won trick is to “accept” that sometimes you’re gonna get swept/pinned/smothered. And if you can respond to that without trying to use muscle against muscle, technique will serve you well.

    2. Okay, how do you do this? Well, I’ve often found that putting yourself up against the biggest, strongest guy in class (whenever it’s a choice you can make) helps. If you do a scary thing enough times, it’s no longer scary.

    3. Always, ALWAYS, have a good shrimp crawl defense. As soon as, (or even before), a big guy is getting the full, side, or half mount, you’re shrimp crawling to get the guard, or otherwise get out from under him. Turn into him, make sure your hips are perpendicular with the floor, and then you can work. If you get flat on your back, your defense is compromised. Remember, it’s much easier to prevent a dominant position, than it is to deal with one once it’s locked in.

    Probably not much in the overall scheme of things, but I thought I’d put my two cents in. Oh, and if none of that works, try the following dirty grappling techniques. These are things you can use to win, but can later justify by saying, “Hey man, I was just kidding with ya! It’s just friendly ground fighting, right?”

    (Note to the moderators: I have actually done these things, so don’t fine me another point)

    1. Tickle: I’m totally serious. Just start tickling a guy and he WILL react. And that second or two of reaction is often enough to facilitate a change in position. And hey, a heartfelt “I was just messing with ya, man!” is often sufficient to disarm the situation later.

    2. Go gay: If things get untenable, lick the side of the guy’s face when he’s on top of you, or grab his hindquarters in such a way that one or more digits go into his butt. Granted, it’s not rape since his shorts and/or GI pants will prevent penetration, but you’ll get a “flinch” that will allow a previously prevented shrimp crawl. And if you’re in a tournament , and a ref calls you on it, (“Son, did you stick your finger in his rectum?”), just play dumb.

    3. Distraction: When you’re huffing and puffing face to ear, discretely tongue your mouthpiece out so you can whisper something like, “Is that your sister having sex with my taxi driver?”

    (You’ll get a pause every time.)

    I hope that helps, Arkanscott. I’m betting it didn’t, but if you ask specific questions from specific positions, I promise to respond in a (completely) serious manner.

    Best wishes,
    -Mike
  4. jnp is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/29/2010 11:36pm

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     Style: BJJ, wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelDescado View Post
    1. Tickle: I’m totally serious. Just start tickling a guy and he WILL react. And that second or two of reaction is often enough to facilitate a change in position. And hey, a heartfelt “I was just messing with ya, man!” is often sufficient to disarm the situation later.

    2. Go gay: If things get untenable, lick the side of the guy’s face when he’s on top of you, or grab his hindquarters in such a way that one or more digits go into his butt. Granted, it’s not rape since his shorts and/or GI pants will prevent penetration, but you’ll get a “flinch” that will allow a previously prevented shrimp crawl. And if you’re in a tournament , and a ref calls you on it, (“Son, did you stick your finger in his rectum?”), just play dumb.

    3. Distraction: When you’re huffing and puffing face to ear, discretely tongue your mouthpiece out so you can whisper something like, “Is that your sister having sex with my taxi driver?”

    (You’ll get a pause every time.)

    I hope that helps, Arkanscott. I’m betting it didn’t, but if you ask specific questions from specific positions, I promise to respond in a (completely) serious manner.

    Best wishes,
    -Mike
    Great post up to the point I left in the quote. Your maturity in accepting the infraction is appreciated.

    Regarding the quote above, while there is nothing wrong with being a joker on the mat, I don't think it's good advice to give a beginner because distraction techniques like those listed above are best suited to someone who has a good grasp of the fundamentals already since they are effectively comedy cheats which don't serve to increase a grappling noobs overall skill.
  5. Lindz is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2010 12:18am

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     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by danno View Post
    when you're equal in skill, strength or fitness, you need to be better at one of these to win. or lucky, i guess.



    i don't think that part was meant to be taken so literally.
    oh. i hope he comes back and clarifies
  6. danno is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/30/2010 12:56am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by wonko221 View Post
    beyond that, i don't disagree with almost your whole poist. In fact, it seems to me that you're simply rephrasing what i said, and quoting geniuses that agree with me too! Now i feel all smart, which is nice.
    yep, that's what i did. most of the extra stuff i posted was more for others who might be reading along rather than to inform you. i can see you already have some understanding of this stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by wonko221 View Post
    As for perfect technique potentially requiring maximum effort... well, i suppose it's also true that unicorns are potentially real. However, i would expect that if a perfect technique ever required maximum effort, it was actually the wrong technique to use at the time.
    nope, i really disagree. there are times when perfect technique is not enough. especially against stronger opponents. ideally you want to use as little effort for any technique. but it's just that - an idealism. all techniques require varying degrees of effort, even though we're using as little as possible.

    strength is an advantage. if this were not true, weight divisions would be pointless.
  7. arkanscott is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2010 9:26am

    Bullshido Newbie
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hey guys, I want to thank all of you for advice. I'm still digesting it and will for some time. If there is more advice out there, please keep it coming....if not, then again, thank you for your help.
  8. Kintanon is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/30/2010 9:53am

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     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Remember also, the point is not to use ZERO STRENGTH all the time. It's to use the minimum amount of strength required to make the technique work. The better the technique the less strength that will usually be. But if you are a 110lb girl up against a 230lb power lifter then "Minimum strength necessary" might be 100% of your strength even with perfect technique.
  9. wonko221 is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2010 10:17am

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     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kintanon View Post
    Remember also, the point is not to use ZERO STRENGTH all the time. It's to use the minimum amount of strength required to make the technique work. The better the technique the less strength that will usually be. But if you are a 110lb girl up against a 230lb power lifter then "Minimum strength necessary" might be 100% of your strength even with perfect technique.
    This clarifies, for me at least, what Danno has been saying.

    That being said, if you are attempting a technique that will take absolutely all of your strength to pull off against that 230 lb power lifter, you're absolutely screwed against everyone stronger than him. Now, as there ain't no such thing as "fairness" in this world, that may be the case. However, it's worth looking for other ways to apply principled, efficient techniques.

    As an example, if a 300+ lb player relaxes drops his dead weight on me, i'm gonna have trouble handling him. If, however, i can get him to tense up, i can start creating trouble for him and might find my way out of his control with finesse. The same technique that fails against him while relaxed may be extremely efficient when i can get him to give me something to work against. This is where staying in a persistently aggressive frame of mind really helps. If i can make him react to my attacks, i'll be generating more opportunities to apply technique then if i'm simply scrambling to stay safe.

    Edit - i forgot to address a final point Danno made: strength is an advantage, or else weight divisions would be pointless.

    I've come to understand that since the introduction of weight classes in Judo (for Olympic feasibility), Judo has changed drastically and is now much less about finesse and more about endurance and strength.

    Your point works both ways: if you allow folks to train within weight classes, you'll increase their dependence on stamina and strength, and their skill may plateau earlier. If you force them to work a variety of body types, their skill will need to increase so that they can adapt to each opponent.
    Last edited by wonko221; 7/30/2010 10:22am at .
  10. Kintanon is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/30/2010 10:29am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by wonko221 View Post
    This clarifies, for me at least, what Danno has been saying.



    As an example, if a 300+ lb player relaxes drops his dead weight on me, i'm gonna have trouble handling him. If, however, i can get him to tense up, i can start creating trouble for him and might find my way out of his control with finesse. The same technique that fails against him while relaxed may be extremely efficient when i can get him to give me something to work against. This is where staying in a persistently aggressive frame of mind really helps. If i can make him react to my attacks, i'll be generating more opportunities to apply technique then if i'm simply scrambling to stay safe.
    You're just describing having improved technique again here. Anything that is not relying on your attributes is relying on your ability aka Technique. There will still be specialized cases where the appropriate and necessary amount of strength for one player is 100% of what they have to offer. This is only really the case in situations of EXTREME Attribute differences of course.

    What you're outlining in that post is something I try to drill into a lot of small guys and describes my mentality perfectly. Attack. Attack all the time. Make your opponent play your game. Don't let him get settled in and have a chance to work against you. The more time you give someone who is bigger/stronger than you are to get settled in then the worse it will be for you.

    I recently learned that I had been overdoing it a bit though, throwing up subs constantly just to keep up a constant stream of harassment. There is a point of diminishing returns there where you start giving your opponent too many openings and they pass your guard and crush you. I took a few weeks to redefine my concept of "attacking" and have since then concentrated more on disrupting my opponents balance constantly as opposed to throwing up subs constantly. My sweep percentage has gone through the roof. Just refusing to allow your opponent to settle in to a position where they can attack you will solve so many problems.

    JNP has an EXCELLENT post somewhere around here about the Spiky Ball principle for little guys that I've used to great effect. I suggest everyone try to find it and read it.
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