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  1. HereBeADragon is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    7/28/2010 1:05am


     Style: Limalama, Judo & BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Gun defense/disarms

    I've been looking to expand certain areas of my martial training and one area that really sits high on my list is close quarters gun defense/combat. There is so much out there on the subject and a lot of it seems unrealistic.
    So I'd love to get some feedback. Who here has engaged in this type of training and who's method would you most recommend? Thanks
  2. Lord Skeletor is offline
    Lord Skeletor's Avatar

    Welterweight

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    Posted On:
    7/28/2010 9:36am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by HereBeADragon View Post
    I've been looking to expand certain areas of my martial training and one area that really sits high on my list is close quarters gun defense/combat. There is so much out there on the subject and a lot of it seems unrealistic.
    So I'd love to get some feedback. Who here has engaged in this type of training and who's method would you most recommend? Thanks

    Eh..it's dangerous and almost never warranted under normal circumstances, IMHO. However....it's good to know if you're ever in that one situation where you don't believe that you're going to survive and the bad guy is dumb enough to put the gun up to your head/chest, etc.

    Systema has some good ones...the ones they teach the police in the basic police academy are decent, although, I'm not sure in what system they are based...since they were developed or "borrowed" before Systema or the Russian RBMA got big over here.
  3. callum828 is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/28/2010 10:48am


     Style: Judo, Muay Thai, MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by HereBeADragon View Post
    I've been looking to expand certain areas of my martial training and one area that really sits high on my list is close quarters gun defense/combat. There is so much out there on the subject and a lot of it seems unrealistic.
    So I'd love to get some feedback. Who here has engaged in this type of training and who's method would you most recommend? Thanks
    The two I've seen are from Krav and are for disarming the gun pointed at your front, and at the back of your head. Both are ridiculously simple and probably the same as would be found in Systema etc. I think learning any more than those two would negate the point of learning them (to be quick and effective) and simply confuse you with too many moves.

    Edit: YouTube- Krav Maga Self Defense Techniques : Front Gun Attack : Krav Maga

    This is the front one.
  4. HereBeADragon is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/28/2010 12:27pm


     Style: Limalama, Judo & BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks guys thats around the lines I've been thinking. My interest is in finding a couple of good simple disarms coupled with a better understanding of hand guns and there use. I consider this a blind spot in a lot of self defense instructors training. I've seen a lot of bad information being presented by people who have never even fired a gun. I'd prefer not to be one of those instructors :)
  5. searcher66071 is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/28/2010 2:22pm


     Style: Karate-knockdown, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The one gun disarm I teach is: once you have the shooter down by hitting him with a minimum of 2 rounds to the body and 2 rounds to the head, use a sweeping styles action with your lead foot to kick the gun from his hand.

    Call it how you want, but my only gun defense is being faster and more accurate with my own firearm than the other guy. I am not trying to be a smart-mouth about it. It is just a little to unpredictable to attempt a disarm when the are holding a gun. Not that a knife is much better, but we can save that for another thread.
  6. callum828 is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/28/2010 5:15pm


     Style: Judo, Muay Thai, MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by searcher66071 View Post
    The one gun disarm I teach is: once you have the shooter down by hitting him with a minimum of 2 rounds to the body and 2 rounds to the head, use a sweeping styles action with your lead foot to kick the gun from his hand.

    Call it how you want, but my only gun defense is being faster and more accurate with my own firearm than the other guy. I am not trying to be a smart-mouth about it. It is just a little to unpredictable to attempt a disarm when the are holding a gun. Not that a knife is much better, but we can save that for another thread.
    Yeah I think we're taking it as a given that gun/knife disarms are crazy dangerous and in most cases not worth attempting. As long as the student understands these caveats however, it seems reasonable to teach them. Also, it's quite pointless learning how to shoot a gun where possession is illegal (like the UK).
  7. ojgsxr6 is offline

    Dorkus Malorkus

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    Posted On:
    7/28/2010 5:32pm

    supporting member
     Style: Boxing/BJJudo/Crossfit

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    the problem I see with all the gun disarms I've seen and taught is that they fail to address the fact that it's a fight for your life when you do these techniques, and the perp isnt going to just let you have the gun when you've grabbed it
  8. searcher66071 is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    7/28/2010 6:47pm


     Style: Karate-knockdown, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by callum828 View Post
    it's quite pointless learning how to shoot a gun where possession is illegal (like the UK).

    Thank God In Heaven that I live in the USA. And that here in KS, we have the right to carry.
  9. Petter is offline

    12th level logic wielder

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    Posted On:
    7/28/2010 7:05pm


     Style: BJJ, judo, rapier

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by callum828 View Post
    Yeah I think we're taking it as a given that gun/knife disarms are crazy dangerous and in most cases not worth attempting. As long as the student understands these caveats however, it seems reasonable to teach them.
    Maybe. OTOH, “understand” is a vague term: Even if you pay lip service to the caveats and ensure that everyone can dutifully recite the litany “This is for last resorts only; better to give up my wallet than to risk it; I could be killed”, they might still gain false confidence, or even instinctively attempt a disarm when faced with a gun as a conditioned training reflex, if you will.

    I wonder whether such things are more likely to help or harm. Sadly, it would be kind of difficult to gather empirical data…
    [ petterhaggholm.net | blog | essays ]
    [ self defence: general thoughts | bjj: “don’t go to the ground”? ]
    “The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.”
  10. wonko221 is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/28/2010 9:00pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    my judo teacher has told me an anecdote that may bear some thinking. He knew of a police officer who had drilled repeatedly in disarming guns pointed at him. This officer would also help other cops drilling the same technique(s). As part of his training, to speed things up, he would often disarm his training partner, then return the weapon to them to repeat the drill.

    The officer came into a situation, i think at a convenience store while off-duty and out of uniform, where someone was robbing the store. The robber put the gun to the officer's chest. The officer's training kicked in, and he successfully disarmed the assailant without a shot getting fired. Unfortunately, he then reflexively returned the weapon to the robber, and was shot.

    My teacher uses this to illustrate that when our training kicks in, we don't exercise much conscious control of what we're doing. If you practice disarming and returning a weapon, you may do so without intending it. Make sure you practice these as discrete acts. Disarm and control the weapon, like shown in the video above. When the technique is over and you've assumed control, take a moment before returning the weapon for continued practice.

    Of course, he also uses this to demonstrate why he prefers judo randori over point fighting... :p
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