Gun defense/disarms

**HereBeADragon** · Posted On: 7/28/2010 1:05am

I've been looking to expand certain areas of my martial training and one area that really sits high on my list is close quarters gun defense/combat. There is so much out there on the subject and a lot of it seems unrealistic.
So I'd love to get some feedback. Who here has engaged in this type of training and who's method would you most recommend? Thanks

**Lord Skeletor** · Posted On: 7/28/2010 9:36am

Originally Posted by HereBeADragon

I've been looking to expand certain areas of my martial training and one area that really sits high on my list is close quarters gun defense/combat. There is so much out there on the subject and a lot of it seems unrealistic.
So I'd love to get some feedback. Who here has engaged in this type of training and who's method would you most recommend? Thanks

Eh..it's dangerous and almost never warranted under normal circumstances, IMHO. However....it's good to know if you're ever in that one situation where you don't believe that you're going to survive and the bad guy is dumb enough to put the gun up to your head/chest, etc.

Systema has some good ones...the ones they teach the police in the basic police academy are decent, although, I'm not sure in what system they are based...since they were developed or "borrowed" before Systema or the Russian RBMA got big over here.

**callum828** · Posted On: 7/28/2010 10:48am

Originally Posted by HereBeADragon

I've been looking to expand certain areas of my martial training and one area that really sits high on my list is close quarters gun defense/combat. There is so much out there on the subject and a lot of it seems unrealistic.
So I'd love to get some feedback. Who here has engaged in this type of training and who's method would you most recommend? Thanks

The two I've seen are from Krav and are for disarming the gun pointed at your front, and at the back of your head. Both are ridiculously simple and probably the same as would be found in Systema etc. I think learning any more than those two would negate the point of learning them (to be quick and effective) and simply confuse you with too many moves.

Edit: YouTube- Krav Maga Self Defense Techniques : Front Gun Attack : Krav Maga

This is the front one.

**HereBeADragon** · Posted On: 7/28/2010 12:27pm

Thanks guys thats around the lines I've been thinking. My interest is in finding a couple of good simple disarms coupled with a better understanding of hand guns and there use. I consider this a blind spot in a lot of self defense instructors training. I've seen a lot of bad information being presented by people who have never even fired a gun. I'd prefer not to be one of those instructors :)

**searcher66071** · Posted On: 7/28/2010 2:22pm

The one gun disarm I teach is: once you have the shooter down by hitting him with a minimum of 2 rounds to the body and 2 rounds to the head, use a sweeping styles action with your lead foot to kick the gun from his hand.

Call it how you want, but my only gun defense is being faster and more accurate with my own firearm than the other guy. I am not trying to be a smart-mouth about it. It is just a little to unpredictable to attempt a disarm when the are holding a gun. Not that a knife is much better, but we can save that for another thread.

**callum828** · Posted On: 7/28/2010 5:15pm

Originally Posted by searcher66071

The one gun disarm I teach is: once you have the shooter down by hitting him with a minimum of 2 rounds to the body and 2 rounds to the head, use a sweeping styles action with your lead foot to kick the gun from his hand.

Call it how you want, but my only gun defense is being faster and more accurate with my own firearm than the other guy. I am not trying to be a smart-mouth about it. It is just a little to unpredictable to attempt a disarm when the are holding a gun. Not that a knife is much better, but we can save that for another thread.

Yeah I think we're taking it as a given that gun/knife disarms are crazy dangerous and in most cases not worth attempting. As long as the student understands these caveats however, it seems reasonable to teach them. Also, it's quite pointless learning how to shoot a gun where possession is illegal (like the UK).

**ojgsxr6** · Posted On: 7/28/2010 5:32pm

the problem I see with all the gun disarms I've seen and taught is that they fail to address the fact that it's a fight for your life when you do these techniques, and the perp isnt going to just let you have the gun when you've grabbed it

**searcher66071** · Posted On: 7/28/2010 6:47pm

Originally Posted by callum828

it's quite pointless learning how to shoot a gun where possession is illegal (like the UK).

Thank God In Heaven that I live in the USA. And that here in KS, we have the right to carry.

**Petter** · Posted On: 7/28/2010 7:05pm

Originally Posted by callum828

Yeah I think we're taking it as a given that gun/knife disarms are crazy dangerous and in most cases not worth attempting. As long as the student understands these caveats however, it seems reasonable to teach them.

Maybe. OTOH, “understand” is a vague term: Even if you pay lip service to the caveats and ensure that everyone can dutifully recite the litany “This is for last resorts only; better to give up my wallet than to risk it; I could be killed”, they might still gain false confidence, or even instinctively attempt a disarm when faced with a gun as a conditioned training reflex, if you will.

I wonder whether such things are more likely to help or harm. Sadly, it would be kind of difficult to gather empirical data…

**wonko221** · Posted On: 7/28/2010 9:00pm

my judo teacher has told me an anecdote that may bear some thinking. He knew of a police officer who had drilled repeatedly in disarming guns pointed at him. This officer would also help other cops drilling the same technique(s). As part of his training, to speed things up, he would often disarm his training partner, then return the weapon to them to repeat the drill.

The officer came into a situation, i think at a convenience store while off-duty and out of uniform, where someone was robbing the store. The robber put the gun to the officer's chest. The officer's training kicked in, and he successfully disarmed the assailant without a shot getting fired. Unfortunately, he then reflexively returned the weapon to the robber, and was shot.

My teacher uses this to illustrate that when our training kicks in, we don't exercise much conscious control of what we're doing. If you practice disarming and returning a weapon, you may do so without intending it. Make sure you practice these as discrete acts. Disarm and control the weapon, like shown in the video above. When the technique is over and you've assumed control, take a moment before returning the weapon for continued practice.

Of course, he also uses this to demonstrate why he prefers judo randori over point fighting... :p