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  1. #21

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Also, 10th dan in JJJ is solid red, the same colour as the first belt after white. I was told the idea is that the 10th dan has gone full circle from beginner to expert.

  2. #22
    Larus marinus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by callum828 View Post
    Also, 10th dan in JJJ is solid red, the same colour as the first belt after white. I was told the idea is that the 10th dan has gone full circle from beginner to expert.
    I was wondering about something along those lines. In some MAs, a red belt = top ranking super elite, yet in other's it's a lower/mid-level kyu rank...

    Any particularly interesting reason for that? I'm finding judoka_uk's explanations fascinating.

  3. #23

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    Several Sensei often tell us this tale: in Aikido it is a custom to never change one's black belt, unless losing or destroying it, so that an expert yudansha will wear it down and it will be once again white, coming full circle like in the others TMA with red belts.
    I like that!

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larus marinus View Post
    I was wondering about something along those lines. In some MAs, a red belt = top ranking super elite, yet in other's it's a lower/mid-level kyu rank...

    Any particularly interesting reason for that? I'm finding judoka_uk's explanations fascinating.
    There's probably something in judoka's answers. Though I did also read somewhere that the original kyu grades in judo were based on the japanese swimming grades, which could explain why the get darker as you progress. presumably all the other stuff came about when other arts adopted the belt system from judo.

  5. #25

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I tought they came from Go...
    Research is needed, I think!

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evilenzo View Post
    I tought they came from Go...
    Research is needed, I think!
    http://www.e-budokai.com/articles/belts.htm

    According to this article, the black belt MAY have come from Japanese high school sports, where advanced students wore a black sash round their waists. The red and white of 8th-10th dan may just be cultural preferences (the colours of the Japanese flag).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_(rank)

    The wiki article does say that both Dan and Kyu rankings came from Go, and are still awarded in the game. Seems to me like he adopted the Dan/Kyu concept from the board game, took the black sash idea from Japanese high school sports, and the colours are just arbitrary.
    Last edited by callum828; 7/31/2010 12:53pm at .

  7. #27
    Larus marinus's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The article here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ky%C5%AB

    states that black belts originated from white belts that became dirty over time and with use (being typical of the less frequently-edited corners of Wikipedia, there's no external references to check out where whoever added that got it from, yet it's been allowed to sit there because no-one cares enough to challenge it) - I thought that this - and the associated 'true martial artists never wash their belts' thing was a roundly-debunked piece of folk wisdom?

    Another story I read recently, which may also be bollocks, was that martial artists would start off with a white belt, then dye it (the same belt) different colours as they progressed through their training - so they'd start off with the light colours, progressing through dark green, then brown, then black for purely practical, colour-mixing purposes. Supposedly because of a shortage of suitable cloth in Japan whenever this supposedly happened. I honestly doubt that this ever really happened.

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larus marinus View Post
    The article here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ky%C5%AB

    states that black belts originated from white belts that became dirty over time and with use (being typical of the less frequently-edited corners of Wikipedia, there's no external references to check out where whoever added that got it from, yet it's been allowed to sit there because no-one cares enough to challenge it) - I thought that this - and the associated 'true martial artists never wash their belts' thing was a roundly-debunked piece of folk wisdom?

    Another story I read recently, which may also be bollocks, was that martial artists would start off with a white belt, then dye it (the same belt) different colours as they progressed through their training - so they'd start off with the light colours, progressing through dark green, then brown, then black for purely practical, colour-mixing purposes. Supposedly because of a shortage of suitable cloth in Japan whenever this supposedly happened. I honestly doubt that this ever really happened.
    I remember my dad mentioning the belt dyeing thing once, as he did judo in the seventies. Whether it was what they actually did or whether he was simply repeating the urban legend I'm not sure.

    But about the white belt gradually turning black over time, that's clearly bull. Fabric doesn't discolour that way.

  9. #29

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    http://www.budokan-vernier.ch/eng/histo/ceintures.html

    And this says that 11th and 12th dan are white belts in judo, similar to the red belt in JJJ.

  10. #30
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Callum and Larius, I have been putting together a pretty long post explaining the whole kyu/ dan thing in Judo and the origin of coloured belts, but its taking me some time to get all the sources to check what I'm saying is correct.

    I'm going to post it and the information from the others posts in a dedicated Judo rank history thread in the JMA forum, when I've done that I'll post the link here.

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