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  1. Tranquil Suit is online now
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    I have emotions.

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    Posted On:
    7/25/2010 8:05am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dsimon3387 View Post
    I dont like to say things like that but..... Well think about it and if you do some research some things will just bite you in the butt, i.e. yu cannot ignore em.
    More examples please.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dsimon3387 View Post
    For example, Henry Armstrong was one of the best of all time.... He was that rare rare bird, a little man who could KO. Now Armstrong fought hi and low, I think he went as high as middle weight and even above.... yes he won but he not by knocking miother fuckers out....
    Fair point, but let's examine his weight gain. At 16, he was a (malnourished) light flyweight (106 pounds). He then started gaining weight by eating properly (becoming well nourished is a quick weight boost), getting older (old man weight and some adolescent weight gain) and serious weight lifting. And over the course of 15 years, he has gone up to welterweight class and going to light middleweight. So let's say 50 pounds of muscle gain in 15 years. The average human gains 5 pounds of muscle per year under a strict diet and weight lifting program... So the numbers seem to check out, no? Hmm okay since Manny is so small, he might gain less per year, but the margins still check out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dsimon3387 View Post
    It is simply unheard of. In Manny's case? well considering this is a guy who had some trouble with Marquez's punch? And then he is knocking out a middle weight with a decent chin?
    A bad night?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dsimon3387 View Post
    No way no how. Manny got ripped beyond belief and he trained hard but he had some chemical help imo. If you do not believe it try to find another lightweight who carried KO power in the heavier divisions. Maybe up one division at most. Oh and remember that Armstrong probaby had the most power of any little man all things considered. If anyone could have done it maybe him? But the power does not carry
    Manny doesn't knock people out instantly. Or even quickly. His punches are medium power, gradually going over the opponent's 'lights out' threshold.
  2. ChadK is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/25/2010 8:57am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    How much of his struggles with Marquez could be attributed to him being weakened by starving himself to make that much lower weight? Now that he's where he should be weight wise (he reportedly walks around at 160-165lbs) he's stronger and more durable. Remember, he turned pro at 15 years old. What did you weigh at 15 compared to your present weight.?

    As far as carrying his power, as someone else has already pointed out, he's breaking them down with an accumulation of punishment (except for Hatton) lately and not so much blasting them out with single punches.

    Finally, does anyone remember Tommy Hearns? He was knocking men out all the way up to Cruiserweight (190lbs - 200lbs depending on the sanctioning body) despite turning professional at 147lbs.
  3. Dsimon3387 is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/25/2010 9:49am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hesperus View Post
    And what's your opinion worth on such matters, again?
    Says one of the few and proud who actually was asked to stuff his own opinions regarding technical matters? I believe it was Jnp? I believe the words were Shut the **** up until you train a while? I believe it was in the Judo section? the specifics escape me.....

    Oh well hypocracy is nothing new here.

    Anyhow its not my opinion exclusively is it?
    This thread never was a high quality conversation - My friend vern Gilbert on the William Acquier thread.

    The fight in question having started over who owns which piece of rubble. Nicko1;2233174 On the Acquier Kim Fiasco slash thread.
  4. Dsimon3387 is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/25/2010 9:56am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubba_The_SHY View Post
    More examples please.

    Fair point, but let's examine his weight gain. At 16, he was a (malnourished) light flyweight (106 pounds). He then started gaining weight by eating properly (becoming well nourished is a quick weight boost), getting older (old man weight and some adolescent weight gain) and serious weight lifting. And over the course of 15 years, he has gone up to welterweight class and going to light middleweight. So let's say 50 pounds of muscle gain in 15 years. The average human gains 5 pounds of muscle per year under a strict diet and weight lifting program... So the numbers seem to check out, no? Hmm okay since Manny is so small, he might gain less per year, but the margins still check out.

    A bad night?

    Manny doesn't knock people out instantly. Or even quickly. His punches are medium power, gradually going over the opponent's 'lights out' threshold.
    Its not just the muscle gain. And when you give your time line Manny did not do this gradually over a 15 year continuum.

    You would have to search long and hard to find anyone who could KO that consistantly at the higher weight classes... I would encourage you to try to look. There is a lot more than simply weight involved. People have a weight they walk around with they have a weight that they can fight at for whatever reason.... Prime example would be Roy Jones. Jones could easily add the weight to fight heavy but he coul not fight so well at that weight and it destroyed his ability to fight at the lower weight classes.

    Also ask yourself this question about weight: why can James Toney basically get to a weight where he is competative with a guy like Sam Peter? yet... there is no way he could fight One of the Klitschkos. Here is a reason: Toney can put weight on and beat Peter but Peter is a Natural Heavy weight... for whatever reason he walks around at that weight which is why he can fight a bigger man than Toney. Peter is at a weight where he can fight anysize man in the division because he is a natural heavyweight, Toney is not... one guy has to do a lot of modifications to get to the weight and really does not own the weight .... the other guy has the bone structure and the familiarity with the weight.

    Pacquio did not simply naturally move up that many weight classes with time and training sorry. I am not saying others are immune to the charms of juicing either.
    Last edited by Dsimon3387; 7/25/2010 10:00am at .
    This thread never was a high quality conversation - My friend vern Gilbert on the William Acquier thread.

    The fight in question having started over who owns which piece of rubble. Nicko1;2233174 On the Acquier Kim Fiasco slash thread.
  5. Dsimon3387 is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/25/2010 10:04am

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChadK View Post
    How much of his struggles with Marquez could be attributed to him being weakened by starving himself to make that much lower weight? Now that he's where he should be weight wise (he reportedly walks around at 160-165lbs) he's stronger and more durable. Remember, he turned pro at 15 years old. What did you weigh at 15 compared to your present weight.?

    As far as carrying his power, as someone else has already pointed out, he's breaking them down with an accumulation of punishment (except for Hatton) lately and not so much blasting them out with single punches.

    Finally, does anyone remember Tommy Hearns? He was knocking men out all the way up to Cruiserweight (190lbs - 200lbs depending on the sanctioning body) despite turning professional at 147lbs.

    Ok with Hearns look at what happened with Hagler. Did he fight Marque fighters at that weight?

    Remember pacquio fought 3 drawn out battles with Marquez and then Ko's Hatton and Cotto etc? I don;t think Hearn's did this and Hearns always had a lot of power edit: sorry guys meant to say that Hearn's always had a big frame... I mean Hearns has more in common body wise with Paul Williams. If you look at Williams you realize given his natural size he will no doubt settle into the higher weight classes as he grows a little bit.
    Last edited by Dsimon3387; 7/25/2010 10:08am at .
    This thread never was a high quality conversation - My friend vern Gilbert on the William Acquier thread.

    The fight in question having started over who owns which piece of rubble. Nicko1;2233174 On the Acquier Kim Fiasco slash thread.
  6. ChadK is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/25/2010 10:51am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "Remember pacquio fought 3 drawn out battles with Marquez and then Ko's Hatton and Cotto etc?"

    You're mistaken. Pacquiao only fought Marquez twice. The first time, he knocked Marquez down 3 times in round one and the fight was scored a draw because one of the judges forgot to give Manny a 3 point round for the first. The second time they fought was a decision victory for Manny.

    Neither Hatton nor Cotto are as slick defensively as Marquez. Both of them are more straightforward fighters. This makes it easier to catch them, as opposed to Marquez waiting to counter everytime Manny came forward. Again, styles make fights. Coming right at Manny is dangerous given his speed, awkward angles, power and stamina. Hatton (who was always overrated anyway) and Cotto were perfect styles for Manny.

    "Ok with Hearns look at what happened with Hagler. Did he fight Marque fighters at that weight?"

    Tommy was the first man to defeat Virgil Hill who was considered a pound for pound candidate and was the top Light Heavyweight at the time. He also KO'd Dennis Andries (another titlist at 175lbs). He fought and beat tough competition at 175lbs.

    As far as body frames go, if you look at Manny's legs in old fight videos, you'll see he's always had large, muscular legs. That's why many experts felt he'd do alright as he moved up in weight.

    Also, he is a dangerous puncher because of his handspeed and the angles from which he's able to land punches. It's the punches you dont see coming that hurt you. Manny is a master of landing those types of shots.
  7. theword is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/25/2010 12:29pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The Examiner did a statistical analysis of Pac's weight gain as he moved up the divisions vs. how long it took him to win. I'm no statistician (I can't even spell it without spellcheck) and, full disclosure the Examiner tends to be a pro Pac paper. The conclusion they found:

    The
    claim of contention is that Pacquiao is on steroids because he has destroyed opponents as he moved up in weight. We find that Manny has needed more than twice as many rounds in order to defeat larger opponents. From super flyweight to super bantamweight, Pacquiao has averaged between 3 and 4 rounds in order to beat his opponents. As he moved up to super featherweight, he needed at least 8 rounds to win. The fact that he had 10 fights in this weight class gives us confidence that there is a sufficient sample size. As he moved up again from lightweight to welterweight, he needed nearly 8 rounds on average to emerge victorious. However, Pacquiao only had 4 bouts in these divisions.



    Here's a link to the full article complete with charts, graphs and math:
    http://www.examiner.com/x-4514-Houst...weight-classes
  8. King Sleepless is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/25/2010 2:23pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hesperus View Post
    And what's your opinion worth on such matters, again?
    And exactly what do you have to say about boxing? Did you suddenly take up boxing now in the last 12 months you've been doing Judo?

    Shut the **** up.
  9. theword is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/25/2010 2:31pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirc View Post
    And exactly what do you have to say about boxing? Did you suddenly take up boxing now in the last 12 months you've been doing Judo?

    Shut the **** up.
    But that logic doesn't really hold up does it? If you had to actively take part in something in order to be qualified to talk about or criticize certain aspects then that means that hardly anyone could have an opinion about movies or books. Since the vast majority of people don't direct films or write novels.
  10. King Sleepless is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/25/2010 2:45pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by theword View Post
    But that logic doesn't really hold up does it? If you had to actively take part in something in order to be qualified to talk about or criticize certain aspects then that means that hardly anyone could have an opinion about movies or books. Since the vast majority of people don't direct films or write novels.
    No it's different here. He doesn't understand the actual art of boxing and speaks about it like he knows. It's one thing to say, "Man this movie sucks because of ____." or "This movie is great because of these aspects."

    But then it's another to be like, "Man the producing of this film sucks as well as the art direction and budgeting limits." and having NEVER produced or done anything related.

    Also, he gives out striking advice when he HAS NEVER EVER DONE A STRIKING ART EVER. Does it a lot.
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