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  1. Petter is offline

    12th level logic wielder

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    Mar 2007
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    Posted On:
    8/05/2010 6:12pm


     Style: BJJ, judo, rapier

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Negation View Post
    One of your links uses this as a reference: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20606148 , a study which claims to have found that glucosamine supplementation is comparable with placebo in treatment of lower back pain.
    Misgivings about that one study aside, that’s one reference in one of the articles I linked to, and the primary claims and criticisms address joint issues such as knee problems rather than that most hideously elusive demon, lower back pain. And I encourage you to seek out more studies. I don’t claim to be an expert; my reading has, however, made me stop buying and taking glucosamine.

    In general, all else being equal (i.e. when I am not able to rank study quality), I am more likely to believe criticisms than condonement of supplements, because

    1. The filedrawer effect/publication bias means that the published studies for anything are likely to be biased toward positive findings (most published research findings are false).
    2. The people with the strongest and most direct financial incentive toward bias are the supplement manufacturers.
    3. A disproportionate number of supporters of supplements &c. are, in my experience, unscientific and irrational—witness the widespread delusion that supplements must be safe because they are “natural”.
    4. The “medical establishment” is perfectly capable of validating and recommending supplements when good evidence for usefulness exists; it is unclear to me that the “supplement establishment” is willing or able to withdraw support for supplements that fail, ergo popularity and continued support are suspect.
    5. This and this are the truth and supplement people generally annoy the hell out of me. (This latter part is not an attempt at a logical argument but rather a statement of personal bias.)
    [ petterhaggholm.net | blog | essays ]
    [ self defence: general thoughts | bjj: “don’t go to the ground”? ]
    “The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.”
  2. Blue Negation is offline

    Woke up in the mortuary

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    Posted On:
    8/05/2010 7:10pm


     Style: Judo, Sub wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Petter View Post
    Misgivings about that one study aside, that’s one reference in one of the articles I linked to, and the primary claims and criticisms address joint issues such as knee problems rather than that most hideously elusive demon, lower back pain...
    I am not and was not arguing in favor of glucosamine usage. I am pointing out that "studies say" whatever the hell people funding/performing them want them to say, when it comes to nutrition and especially the field of supplementation. As a student of nutrition working towards becoming a dietitian with a background in molecular/cancer genetics, the studies performed in the field of human nutrition are horribly flawed compared to those I was familiar with in genetics. No one would get away with these stunts in any other field.

    Again, I point to soy.

    So, a word of warning to everyone: take "studies say" with a grain of salt each and every time when you are not informed of the methodology of the study, and even then maybe you should.
  3. PDA is online now
    PDA's Avatar

    Welterweight

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    Posted On:
    8/06/2010 2:38am

    supporting member
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I prefer to try things on reccommendations from people i know or and trust rather than as you say people with bias for one reason or another.
    Its too blanket to say supplements do or do not work as im sure some do and some do not.
    I know dozens of people who have taken Glucosamine including myself and have fealt real benefits. There is no way this is placebo effect IMO for all of them because many of them are the kind of people that took it reluctantly expecting it to do nothing or are always looking for problems to moan about and say things dont work because they are a special case and their problem is worse than anybody elses on the planet (im sure you know the types)
    King without a crown
  4. Petter is offline

    12th level logic wielder

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    Posted On:
    8/06/2010 3:21am


     Style: BJJ, judo, rapier

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr P View Post
    I prefer to try things on reccommendations from people i know or and trust rather than as you say people with bias for one reason or another.
    Ergo, you prefer anecdotes.
    I know dozens of people who have taken Glucosamine including myself and have fealt real benefits.
    Ergo, anecdotes. Subjective perception.
    There is no way this is placebo effect IMO for all of them because many of them are the kind of people that took it reluctantly expecting it to do nothing
    You think placebo effect and need for controlled studies is all about patient expectations? Wow.
    [ petterhaggholm.net | blog | essays ]
    [ self defence: general thoughts | bjj: “don’t go to the ground”? ]
    “The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.”
  5. PDA is online now
    PDA's Avatar

    Welterweight

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    Posted On:
    8/06/2010 4:10am

    supporting member
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    No, i bow to your superior knowledge of substance studies . I am just a common man trying to take the right stuff.
    What you call anecdotes can be described in number of other ways and im not trying to draw a 100% conclusion based on my own perceptions.
    If I have encountered numerous people who have tried something and say it works then IMO it is possible that it does and thus I may try it.
    It may be that they are all wrong, it may be that it works for them but not for me.
    But I think we can all agree that the level of information out there is weak so given that i do not have the resources to open a lab and pay some scientists to analyze and test everything as if it where a cancer drug I will have to be old school and ask people who have tried it.


    Oh and by the way i have started to put fresh lemon and lime in my Green Tea and would reccommend this to everybody because it makes it tastes better.
    Anybody got anything against Green Tea or Fresh Lemons and Limes?
    Last edited by PDA; 8/06/2010 4:18am at .
    King without a crown
  6. Asriel is offline
    Asriel's Avatar

    I'd like to leave this world like I came into it: Screaming, naked & covered in someone else's blood

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    Posted On:
    8/06/2010 8:41am

    supporting member
     Style: Muay Thai (BJJ hiatus)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I used to take a list of supplements as long as yours. Nowadays, I have berocca or a multi and glucosamine and that's it apart from my recovery formula straight after training.

    I would argue that I actually feel better now than I did on all those supplements because my diet is a hell of a lot better than it was back then
    " The reason elite level MMAists don't fight with aikido is the same reason elite level swimmers don't swim with their lips." - Virus

    " I shocked him with my skills on the ice becuase Wing Chun is great for hockey fighting." - 'Sifu' Milt Wallace

    "Besides, as you might already know (from Virus, for example) - there's only 1 wing chun and it sucks big time" - Tonuzaba

    "Even when I'm promising mayhem and butt-chicanery, I'm generally posting with a smile on my face." - Sochin101

    "That said, if he blocked my hip on a drop nage, I would extend my leg into a drop tai Otoshi and slam him so hard his parents would die." - MTripp

  7. PDA is online now
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    Welterweight

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    Posted On:
    8/06/2010 9:31am

    supporting member
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    From what i have read/heard and experianced, it all starts with a good balanced diet and plenty of sleep.
    Without those all the supplements in the world wont make much difference.
    Ive also heard good stuff about that Berrocca, i may give it a go.
    King without a crown
  8. Aodhan is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    8/06/2010 5:06pm


     Style: ATA TKD, Hapkido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr P View Post
    From what i have read/heard and experianced, it all starts with a good balanced diet and plenty of sleep.
    Without those all the supplements in the world wont make much difference.
    Ive also heard good stuff about that Berrocca, i may give it a go.
    You are an advertisers wet dream and a sensible person's nightmare.

    John
  9. PDA is online now
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    Welterweight

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    Posted On:
    8/07/2010 5:05am

    supporting member
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Aodhan View Post
    You are an advertisers wet dream and a sensible person's nightmare.

    John
    I get that allot.
    King without a crown
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