8/05/2010 12:20pm, #91
So many unsupported opinions on chi in this thread, whereas the medical study I posted discussing exactly how humans can manipulate energy flow throughout the body via heat transfer is so over most of your heads. None of you will address that paper, because you feel its safer and easier to go ad hominem on the Rabbit.
Thus, in response we get the same old tired Bullshido template responses: "Nobody likes you", "electrothermodynamics is bullshit", etc.
The truth is what most people refer to as "chi", if it really does exist, is probably best explained via biofeedback (as Helmutlvx noted) and eletrothermodynamics of the body (which I posted research on). Since I can create heat energy from my muscles when I flex them during exercise, it stands to reason I can direct that heat/energy in various ways, or even draw heat from one area of the body to another.
You can do that with a cold pack via heat transfer. And the medical research I posted clearly indicates I can do the same using different muscles during exercise. This is the closest thing I've ever seen approaching "scientific" proof that people can manipulate energy within their own bodies. Energy is not some "fantastical" power, it exists within the body in the form of chemical, thermal, and bioelectrical impulses. It's in the paper...go fucking read it.
Last edited by W. Rabbit; 8/05/2010 12:33pm at .
8/05/2010 12:21pm, #92
I find it fascinating this concept is so lost on most of you. It must come from an overabundance of two dimensional thinking.
Last edited by W. Rabbit; 8/05/2010 12:35pm at .
8/05/2010 12:28pm, #93
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
- Now in China
- TKD, Arnis, Catch
Just putting in my 2 cents.
I used to practice that Ki junk. For a good long while I believed that the proper control of your Ki could make you faster and stronger. Then I started lifting weights. And one day I decided to perform a ki exercise to make myself stronger before lifting. After the exercise I found that I could not push any more reps than before into my lifting or lift anything heavier than I could before. After that I stopped wasting time on ki.
Something is definetly going on though. I still remember how to do most of the exercises and something is going on with the body but it doesn't appear to affect anything.
My old TKD instructor really started to get into the ki stuff. He says he can move paper with his ki. There was a trick that he started doing with the kids in his class. He would move his hands in front of himself to 'gather the air into a ball' and then push this ball into the kids back causing them to lean forward. He showed this to me and I voulentered to be the first adult he would try this on. As he did it I could feel the hot air forming that kids described and then it broke up on my back but it did not push me. I said to my instructor maybe I'm just too heavy for it but he says wieght has nothing to with it. And tried two three more times failing to push me again and gave up saying he needs to train some more. He described this exercise as literally moving the air rather than ki. I am not sure what to make of it but it was interesting. Though I decided I wanted to be trained in martial arts and not this and so left the school soon after this experiance.
8/05/2010 3:51pm, #94
- Join Date
- Mar 2008
- Memphis, TN
- Muay Thai
I don't know which of the three it is, but you're definitely an arrogant prick with a superiority complex. It's impossible to talk to you, so i won't from now on
8/05/2010 3:58pm, #95
THE THERMODYNAMICS OF THE HUMAN BODY AND THE BIOPHYSICAL FEATURES OF THE THERMAL ENERGY
Most of the heat produced in the body is generated in the deep organs, especially in the liver, brain, heart and the skeletal muscles during exercise. Then this heat is transferred from the deeper organs and tissues to the skin, where it is lost to the air and other surroundings. Therefore, the rate at which heat is lost is determined almost entirely by two factors: first, how rapidly heat can be conducted from where it is produced in the body core to the skin and how rapidly heat can then be transferred from the skin to the surroundings.
Chair and Department of Medical Biophysics
Silesian University School of Medicine
ul. Medyków 18, bud. C2
40 - 752 Katowice
8/05/2010 4:43pm, #96
- Join Date
- May 2009
- Backyard Crappling
If you find yourself agreeing with W.Rabbit you are probably wrong. Also probably stupid.
8/05/2010 7:26pm, #97
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
W. Rabbit, so you think the body's generation of heat is the same as chi? Then why don't any of the internal martial arts or writings about chi indicate this? Also what's the point of chi if chi is heat? Why not just call it heat? How would one train to develop this?
8/06/2010 2:52pm, #98
- Join Date
- Jun 2010
- Madison, Wisconsin
- Northern Shaolin
My first post on this thread listed the things which Qi does as per the 'oldest' source available (Per se).
Arguing that ultra modern mathematical theories explain ancient psuedo science and superstition is time poorly spent.
Trepanning was well worthwhile to let the demons out, back in the day. I dont see people using quantum physics to explain the demons or how drilling holes in their heads allowed them to be released.
But if you have to go there, riddle me this:
How does all this relate to how awesome it is to watch Chi Chiu Ling peform Gung Gi Fuk Fu?
PS: If my knee would allow it, I would be working on more than walking and flexibilty excersizes. The sentiment of 'Train hard and well' is good intentioned much earlier in this thread.
8/06/2010 9:15pm, #99
- Join Date
- Dec 2005
- united kingdom
The article in question refers to the way heat is generated and lost in the body, essentially how we maintain a steady 37 degrees celsius despite changes in outside temperature. Things that create heat in the body, chemical reactions in cells, muscle contractions, metabolism some of which can be affected by different chemicals within the body such as hormones. Ways that heat is lost (heat always moves to colder things) eg when the outside temperature is lower than the body then more heat is lost.
I agree that this might explain some of the hot feelings described when someone has their chi "manipulated" by someone else who uses their hands which give off heat, but this has nothing to do with the feats you later mention in regard to chi eg lifting a car. Yes this article shows research into energy exchange within the body but it in no way offers any credence to the existence of anything that is beyond our current scientific understanding.
Chi is an ancient and vague term that is widely used and that is attributed many effects from killing a person to keeping you in good health, to manipulating the weather. It is meant to represent the "vital force" that makes us living and animate rather than inanimate.
I have heard explanations ranging from "it is an energy that flows around centres in the body", to "chi is in the blood". It is most likely an explanation developed by people who lacked the scientific and medical knowledge we now have to describe sensations in the body and as time has gone on it has accrued a mythic status.
For example if you perform the first move in most tai chi forms, this involves raising your hands from your waste to roughly your shoulders fingers facing down and then move then in a downwards motion bending your hands at the wrist, you then get a tingling sensation in your hands. This was said by my old tai chi instructor to be chi, I then said that this is more likely to be the blood moving around your hands as you raise then up and down, He said "ah but chi is in the blood", which of course explained everything!
This is the whole problem with chi go to a different person and you will get a different explanation, none of which are proven.
W rabbit you said earlier
"Take the simple example of adrenal glands, and how a quick squirt of adrenaline and other things poorly understood by science that can allow a person to lift a car to save someone's life. To me this is what Qi is...something every person can tap in to if they train right, or occasionally in times of crisis. And I feel that Chainpunch is right that it exists 180 degrees away from Bullshido.net"
Epinephrine (also known as adrenaline) is a hormone and neurotransmitter.. It increases heart rate, contracts blood vessels, dilates air passages and participates in the fight-or-flight response of the sympathetic nervous system. Chemically, epinephrine is a catecholamine, a monoamine produced only by the adrenal glands from the amino acids phenylalanine and tyrosine.
This hardly sounds like a poorly understood thing to me and this is from wikipedia. As for lifting a car well watch the Worlds Strongest Man competition ans you will see alot of people doing that.
NO PERSON claiming chi as the force they are tapping into has yet been found to be able to prove its existence and the effects they pronounce as being caused by chi have generally been disproved and debunked.
YES there are things science is yet to understand NO this does not mean that chi exists.
If chi is so important and exists 180 degrees a way from bullshido then why don't you walk 180 degrees away from bullshido
10/07/2012 11:05pm, #100
- Join Date
- Dec 2011
- 1 technique 1000 times
ANOTHER TCM debate derail.
If it doesn't convince you after you've tried it, then that's on you. But if a guy you tussle with swears by it (and you lose, or admit that he hits HARD and fights WELL), you have no right to say it didn't help him. Same with someone that suffers from x, y, and z health issues. You can't tell someone that it didn't help them, or that it was "all psychological," because the proof is in the pudding. Acupuncture is being added to a LOT of hospitals around the United States as alternate therapies.