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  1. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Shime Waza Test Dummy

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    Posted On:
    4/08/2011 7:03pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: StrikeyGrappling & WW2-fu

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    less shitty music + a **** load more than 30sec of footage might change some minds. You didn't prove ****, get a clue.
    30 seconds of footage & shitty music =/= What All Sayoc Folks DO.
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
  2. spamurai13 is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/08/2011 10:41pm


     Style: Southern Kung Fu, BJJ, AK

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Simply put, I'm not trying to prove anything with a single clip. I have already left multiple clips of full contact sparring within the Sayoc and Atienza organizations that are longer than 30 seconds and demonstrate the different levels of intensity. I merely put the clip in for consolidation purposes.

    The music doesn't play into it. Putting the Barney theme song to an MMA fight doesn't take away from the fact that it is an MMA fight. If the music bothers you, put it on mute. As for the quality of the knife sparring, I'm not going to state whether it is good or bad. This was done at Sama Sama which is a several day seminar where Sayoc practioners of all levels and from many groups come together, so its likely on that day that there were fights of high quality and fights of low quality. So do all Sayoc practioners do this? No, however, the fact that this took place at Sama Sama suggests that instructors from various areas are training their students enough so that they can participate in this activity.

    Time length also should not be a criticism as 30 seconds of a Dog Brothers gathering is still 30 seconds of Kali Tudo.

    Over the course of this thread, it appears as if some people just want to criticize just for the sake of criticizing, which is fine and within the spirit of the forum. I am beyond trying to convince people of the legitimacy of Sayoc or Atienza Kali because despite accounts from practioners and video clips, that doesn't seem to be satisfactory.

    Like I said, my intention was not to reengage in any arguments, but more so to compile a thread of video clips so that in the future, I can refer to one place for these clips
  3. Chili Pepper is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/08/2011 10:42pm


     Style: Siling Labuyo Arnis

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yeah, not the best clip to make your point. Can't really say much about the skill of the practitioners when it's wiping away every 2 seconds.
  4. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    4/08/2011 10:51pm

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I always feel that fencing masks should be worn for that kind of stuff. Its safer and allows you to attack the face more earnestly.
  5. spamurai13 is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/08/2011 10:53pm


     Style: Southern Kung Fu, BJJ, AK

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    To each his own. The Sama Sama 2008 DVD has a whole chapter on the knife fights. I'll be honest that I don't want to pay $50 and get the equipment to burn those to this forum. As I've mentioned, I don't feel the need to demonstrate that these organizations can and do escalate the intensity of their sparring. Even if it isn't always specific to the knife.

    Once again, with respect to different families of FMA, the philosophy of the Atienzas and Sayocs is that the knife is an ambush weapon. One's tactics change if someone squares up to you with a knife. Therefore, when we train with knives, the encounter is very quick with the goal of the Sayoc/Atienza player hitting a vital target within a few seconds. It just doesn't seem quite as realistic to have a 5 minute sparring session when either side is stabbing and getting stabbed multiple times in vital areas.
  6. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/08/2011 11:28pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: StrikeyGrappling & WW2-fu

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by spamurai13 View Post
    Simply put, I'm not trying to prove anything with a single clip. I have already left multiple clips of full contact sparring within the Sayoc and Atienza organizations that are longer than 30 seconds and demonstrate the different levels of intensity. I merely put the clip in for consolidation purposes.
    LOL & what were you "consolidating"?

    The music doesn't play into it. Putting the Barney theme song to an MMA fight doesn't take away from the fact that it is an MMA fight.
    & that's neither here nor there. We're not discussing an MMA fight, now are we?

    If the music bothers you, put it on mute. As for the quality of the knife sparring, I'm not going to state whether it is good or bad. This was done at Sama Sama which is a several day seminar where Sayoc practioners of all levels and from many groups come together, so its likely on that day that there were fights of high quality and fights of low quality. So do all Sayoc practioners do this? No, however, the fact that this took place at Sama Sama suggests that instructors from various areas are training their students enough so that they can participate in this activity.
    Do you see a lot of value in knife sparring like this?

    Time length also should not be a criticism as 30 seconds of a Dog Brothers gathering is still 30 seconds of Kali Tudo.
    Yes, but as we all know, there is plenty of contact and action at a Dog Brothers gathering. & again, it's neither here nor there.

    Over the course of this thread, it appears as if some people just want to criticize just for the sake of criticizing, which is fine and within the spirit of the forum. I am beyond trying to convince people of the legitimacy of Sayoc or Atienza Kali because despite accounts from practioners and video clips, that doesn't seem to be satisfactory.
    Correct.

    Like I said, my intention was not to reengage in any arguments, but more so to compile a thread of video clips so that in the future, I can refer to one place for these clips
    I suppose if you lack the capacity to Bookmark videos, or to cut&paste links into a document or perhaps an email to yourself.... ah, good ideas are so few and far between.
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
  7. Sun_Helmets is offline

    Featherweight

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    Posted On:
    4/11/2011 8:11pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Kali

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That clip is a Bladesport demo, reps asked Sayoc practitioners to test out their rules, etc. It was included in the demo portions of a gathering dvd. Bladesport is a different organization entirely.

    It is clearly marked as "Bladesport Tournament at Sayoc Sama Sama 2008"

    Bladesport does this demo with various organizations. There's some crossover in people but the FMA world is small.

    Bladesport
  8. Sayoc_Guro is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/17/2011 7:51am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Sayoc Kali

    -1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by spamurai13 View Post
    Simply put, I'm not trying to prove anything with a single clip. I have already left multiple clips of full contact sparring within the Sayoc and Atienza organizations that are longer than 30 seconds and demonstrate the different levels of intensity. I merely put the clip in for consolidation purposes.

    The music doesn't play into it. Putting the Barney theme song to an MMA fight doesn't take away from the fact that it is an MMA fight. If the music bothers you, put it on mute. As for the quality of the knife sparring, I'm not going to state whether it is good or bad. This was done at Sama Sama which is a several day seminar where Sayoc practioners of all levels and from many groups come together, so its likely on that day that there were fights of high quality and fights of low quality. So do all Sayoc practioners do this? No, however, the fact that this took place at Sama Sama suggests that instructors from various areas are training their students enough so that they can participate in this activity.

    Time length also should not be a criticism as 30 seconds of a Dog Brothers gathering is still 30 seconds of Kali Tudo.

    Over the course of this thread, it appears as if some people just want to criticize just for the sake of criticizing, which is fine and within the spirit of the forum. I am beyond trying to convince people of the legitimacy of Sayoc or Atienza Kali because despite accounts from practioners and video clips, that doesn't seem to be satisfactory.

    Like I said, my intention was not to reengage in any arguments, but more so to compile a thread of video clips so that in the future, I can refer to one place for these clips
    Unfortunately, nothing that is posted here or elsewhere on the internet will convince the keyboard commandos of the validity of Sayoc training.

    The internet trolls will always find something to be critical of in order to inflate their own importance. They have already made it clear that they don't intend to pay for anything, so short of putting the entire system on youtube (with appropriate music from the self-appointed American Idol crowd) they will always have something negative to say.

    Fortunately, Sayoc and Atienza have students around the world that can make up their own minds based on their first hand experiences.
  9. Sayoc_Guro is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/17/2011 7:54am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Sayoc Kali

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    I always feel that fencing masks should be worn for that kind of stuff. Its safer and allows you to attack the face more earnestly.
    That's a valid point for safety purposes but understand the fencing masks, or any protective gear, can also be restrictive enough to alter the student's perception, mobility and timing.

    With blade work you don't necessarily need to focus so much on power as you do accuracy.
  10. Chili Pepper is online now
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    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    4/17/2011 8:25am


     Style: Siling Labuyo Arnis

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sayoc_Guro View Post
    That's a valid point for safety purposes but understand the fencing masks, or any protective gear, can also be restrictive enough to alter the student's perception, mobility and timing.
    I would argue to the contrary. If I'm sparring against someone without protective gear, I will be extremely wary of putting a weapon anywhere near their face. It astounds me how the vast majority of FMA'ers don't wear anything as simple as safety goggles when working with weapons.
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