Sayoc Kali, Pekiti Tirsia Kali and Atienza Kali

**jnperrings** · Posted On: 3/10/2011 12:35pm

Originally Posted by Sayoc_Guro

As stated several times before, the equipment is their to support the training. Go to any MMA gym and you'll see heavy bags and mats, gloves and pads. All that equipment is to there to make it easier for the students to train. All that equipment costs money, just as a training rig costs money.

I would never train with heavy bags or pads because I don't wear those things on "the street." ;)

**Sayoc_Guro** · Posted On: 3/10/2011 7:55pm

Originally Posted by jnperrings

I would never train with heavy bags or pads because I don't wear those things on "the street." ;)

:)

Yeah, there is a tendency for folks to want to train as they fight to the exclusion of train for the fight.

Even if you consider the only true validation of a technique to be "sparring" how many people spar on an open mat in uniforms vs. outside in the parking lot in street clothes at night when its raining?

Sayoc methodology uses Training Modifiers to keep students from getting complacent and to continually force them to adapt to new conditions even if its a drill they have done before. Guro Kevin Estela of Sayoc Kali does a good job touching on the basics in this article: The Training Modifier

To put new (untrained) students in to an all out street fight would be irresponsible and counter productive.

One of the keys to a good system is how you bridge the gap from building skill sets in a safe training environment where students can learn to realistic training that can prepare students for whatever they may face on "the street."

**Sun_Helmets** · Posted On: 3/11/2011 9:30am

Seth Godin writes:

"Here's the conversation that needs to happen before we invest a lot of time in evidence-based marketing in the face of skepticism: "What evidence would you need to see in order to change your mind?"

If the honest answer is, "well, actually, there's nothing you could show me that would change my mind," you've just saved everyone a lot of time. Please don't bother having endless fact-based discussions."
---

Now take a look at all the responses on this thread so far and any logical person can see a typical example of what blind skepticism is all about.

You have one so called knife expert whose total experience with Sayoc and Atienza is based on HERESAY and desperately trying to squeeze out as many arbitrary samples on youtube for legitimacy.

On the other side are numerous Sayoc instructors from all over the country with a vast experience in many martial arts, diverse origins in training and real world combatives offering first hand evidence of their positive experience with Sayoc.

The forum knife skeptic's only response is more selective youtube viewing based on a constantly moving arbitrary set of criteria.

Even if the youtube clips show hard no padded sparring, it will not change this type of blind skepticism.

Nothing new.

Seth Godin adds:
"What would change his (skeptic's) mind, what would change the mind of many people resistant to evidence is a series of eager testimonials from other tribe members who have changed their minds. When people who are respected in a social or professional circle clearly and loudly proclaim that they've changed their minds, a ripple effect starts."
----

Oh no, not ALL skeptics Mr. Godin, we have special cases of one person going FULL SKEPTIC on the bullshido forum.

Even if you have quotes from actual real world military, security and law enforcement experts, those who are HIGHLY respected in their professional field who extoll the virtues of Sayoc training DURING a time of war, even if you have a 24 year Navy SEAL writing about the positive results from his Sayoc training in his memoirs, or a legend in JKD like Dan Inosanto, or one of the top guys in the Dog Brothers, or leading MMA fighters, and so many more added to the GROWING list of Sayoc supporters.

You have that blind skeptic. Who trains in his limited knife sparring scenarios, training that Sayoc has been doing for decades, training that is so limited in real world application that no one who works in the real world of combatives considers it any more useful than skipping rope... the blind skeptic - he can skip that rope well, and no one who skips rope like him knows the truth.

That rope skipping is free, just like youtube clips, so it's got to be the best type of training! Look at my cardio (we'd like to see him test his awesome cardio against some of our Sayoc students).

Some people confuse skill with how cheap they can acquire it and how little they have to think. Not hard work, hard earned, innovative and evolving real world training criterias. How much does it feed their ego for as little effort as possible.

Think about it - the blind skeptic's evidence lies not from first hand experience, no real world evidence, and certainly no real world professional who supports his argument. An argument that has been addressed and debunked with first hand experiences.

You can't convince someone who has gone FULL SKEPTIC.

That's the reason he revived a long dead thread.

He wasn't here to learn, but he inadvertantly allowed others to learn from his mistake.

**Sayoc_Guro** · Posted On: 3/11/2011 10:04am

Originally Posted by selfcritical

Umm, there's sparring video earlier in this thread. The one you're posting in right now. The no gear stick sparring, remember?

selfcritical,

I'm sure most of us following this thread are on the same page with you as far as what constitutes "sparring."

The others obviously had an agenda and were never open to hearing what those with firsthand experience in Sayoc had to say.

Reference Post# 974 of this thread (typo is from the original post)

“It would be more benefecial just to train with an instructor in person. Going back and forth using videos to communicate is just simply a task not worth doing.”

I think we can all agree that videos are great supplement to training rather than substitute. Yet even the above quoted poster who acknowledges the value of training with an instructor in person will then selectively criticize video clips taken out of context to support his own agenda.

Or invent other reasons why someone should not train in Sayoc because of their own self imposed limitations.

**bluedevilboy76** · Posted On: 3/12/2011 3:02am

One of the expected (non)tactics is the lack of any consistent logical framework. What's interesting also is that the level of training created by the self imposed limitations isn't acknowledged. Rather, an egocentric claim that contradicts verifiable, reportable data is made based on an incomplete understanding of how things fit together in a combative as opposed to a sportive framework.

Originally Posted by Sayoc_Guro

selfcritical,

I'm sure most of us following this thread are on the same page with you as far as what constitutes "sparring."

The others obviously had an agenda and were never open to hearing what those with firsthand experience in Sayoc had to say.

Reference Post# 974 of this thread (typo is from the original post)

I think we can all agree that videos are great supplement to training rather than substitute. Yet even the above quoted poster who acknowledges the value of training with an instructor in person will then selectively criticize video clips taken out of context to support his own agenda.

Or invent other reasons why someone should not train in Sayoc because of their own self imposed limitations.

**Jim_Jude** · Posted On: 3/12/2011 3:13am

it may be selfish, but I'm fairly glad that I've only earned 30 pushups over the course of this thread....... the pushups have been performed. (Marine pushups at that.) Ugggggghhhhh...
*I stayed in pushup position until they were done*
I'm the better part of 40yo & I feel out of shape. I hate comparing the 2011 version of me to the 1997(+1st SOTG +1st Force Recon version....)

######THE HUMAN CONDITION CHAPS MAH AZZ#####

**Jim_Jude** · Posted On: 3/12/2011 3:48am

you fuckin' cunts need to learn what is up..........

**Jim_Jude** · Posted On: 3/12/2011 3:55am

UNDER STRESS, THE HUMAN ORGANISM IS ONLY WORTH SO MUCH....

P.L.E.A.S.E.E.............TRAIN attach & counter-atttack, get the rest in muscle memory.......
\\ adios,,,,, I ,,,,, yuo remember.... stay strongh.....

**Sun_Helmets** · Posted On: 3/13/2011 11:53am

Originally Posted by bluedevilboy76

One of the expected (non)tactics is the lack of any consistent logical framework. What's interesting also is that the level of training created by the self imposed limitations isn't acknowledged. Rather, an egocentric claim that contradicts verifiable, reportable data is made based on an incomplete understanding of how things fit together in a combative as opposed to a sportive framework.

Yes, at some point verifiable data wins out.

After seeking out these very critic's own youtube clips online - (all of whom have hidden self-serving agendas mind you - obscurity is a weak marketing base but latching on to a higher profile organization to gain attention is a predictable one).

lf the youtube clip searches are performed to support one's criticism about Sayoc, a counter set of clips should also be online to support their argument in context.

Another interesting detail that has surfaced is that the primary source of the criticism of Sayoc's real world knife combatives has a total of no live knife sparring sessions of his own on youtube. Instead we find a brief segment in his promo clip of doing... beginner face to face, one step low aggression hubud drills.

As others have pointed out scenario and modifier based training produces high levels of stress. It introduces anomalies, and real time, real environment responses. Sparring in pre-determined, controlled spaces is a good beginner base, but at some point you build off that.

Here's how one can gauge the limited experience in knife work.

Anyone who films themselves doing introductory hubud knife training, must be aware that this is not the end all of knife combatives. Therefore applying a different set of criteria to Sayoc to promote their skills is rather silly at best and produces diminishing returns in marketing their combatives program.

Instead of actively engaging and inquiring first hand about Sayoc combatives, this individual preferred to alienate himself from building into an ever growing highly respective diverse community of Sayoc supporters- one that has become an impressive array of productive and efficient dialed in network of sources.