222074 Bullies, 4108 online  
  • Register
Our Sponsors:

Results 61 to 70 of 98
Page 7 of 10 FirstFirst ... 34567 8910 LastLast
Sponsored Links Spacer Image
  1. Team Python is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Indio, Ca.
    Posts
    315

    Posted On:
    3/03/2011 4:18pm


     Style: BJJ, Libre, Street Boxing

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by bluedevilboy76 View Post
    Sparring= sport when the goal is not to kill each other. Typically, people who walk away from a sparring session are still friendly and have learned something from the exchange. For those who participate in combative sports, sparring is used to ready them for the fight. Especially in the latter case, there is no way that sparring could be more than sport (fighters don't enter a sparring session with the thought that they are going to kill or be killed). There are definitely a lot of people out there who could speak about fight prep more than I could (peaking at the right time vs. overtraining), as my experience in that realm is very limited. The other factor is that typically people are not going 100% when they spar. There is usually a limiter in place, usually on speed, power, or both.

    Sparring with a purpose: In Sayoc and Atienza Kali, knife "sparring" typically doesn't begin in a dueling context. We usually work from scenarios, but that's all kind of besides the point. Here's an analogy:

    In BJJ, people often roll with an agenda in mind: "I want to work on how to get an arm-bar from the guard" or "lock flow to kimura" or "work to the rear naked choke." In my very limited BJJ experience, whenever I roll with people who are more experienced than I am, they are typically working in this way.

    In Sayoc Kali and Atienza Kali, my "sparring" has usually been similar to this: I try to work certain techniques, identify reference points and anchor points, and problem solve. Even when I'm not working something specific, the focus is always on acknowledging the hit or learning from the exchange rather than an egotistical "I'm better than you" approach that's all about winning some imaginary point contest.

    Beyond sparring= Everything beyond the "friendly" exchange. Back to the BJJ analogy, this would mean grappling beyond the tap. In a firearms instruction context, this would mean shooting beyond the kill house, reactive targets, and simunitions training.

    So let me get this straight……you are saying that you guys don’t spar knife vs. knife in what you called a dueling situation. Okay other than using a knife against multiple opponents or using a knife against an armed subject what other situations would you use a knife and be justified in doing so.

    I don’t know where you get the idea that sparring is a sport. Is this your own observation or is this what they teach all you Sayoc students. Just because we don’t kill each other does not mean we don’t try to hurt one another. What makes your situation sparring different or better? I would like to know and I am sure a few others on this forum would like to know as well.

    Now our group spars in knife vs. knife and knife vs. multiple opponents since these two scenarios is usually what would happen in knife usage. We make sparring as realistic as possible using eye protection as the only safety equipment. Sparring is needed to learn to deal with resistance. How can you expect to learn to deal with a resisting opponent if you don't spar with each other?
  2. Jim_Jude is offline
    Jim_Jude's Avatar

    Shime Waza Test Dummy

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    3,555

    Posted On:
    3/03/2011 4:19pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: StrikeyGrappling & WW2-fu

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sun_Helmets View Post
    Ron Balicki has also attended Sayoc seminars.

    I saw those silat videos back in the early 90's. We have cimande and various silat instructors who teach Sayoc as well.
    ah, name dropping sure is fun, huh?

    However, if you took Team Python's criticisms as valid then you must apply it to your own videos. No one shows everything in their dvds or promo clips.
    yeah, that old "master keeping the best trick for himself, his students may try to kill him blahblahblah", that isn't what we're talking about.
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
  3. selfcritical is offline

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    austin, tx
    Posts
    2,428

    Posted On:
    3/04/2011 12:32pm


     Style: Pekiti, ARMA, other stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    About the sparring thing

    It's been a couple years, but in the 6 months or so I was doing sayoc, we did unscripted knife on empty-hand work each and every session at the end, with progressive resistance starting out on the low end. We also did force on force against the "shock entry" stuff, which I think would satisfy pretty much anyone's defintion of full contact. I have some things I would have done differently, and I don't think every part of the curriculum is to my liking, but "not pressure testing" isn't really an issue that the sayoc or atienza groups have to my knowledge.
  4. Sayoc_Guro is offline

    Featherweight

    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    14

    Posted On:
    3/07/2011 10:03am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Sayoc Kali

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by selfcritical View Post
    It's been a couple years, but in the 6 months or so I was doing sayoc, we did unscripted knife on empty-hand work each and every session at the end, with progressive resistance starting out on the low end. We also did force on force against the "shock entry" stuff, which I think would satisfy pretty much anyone's defintion of full contact. I have some things I would have done differently, and I don't think every part of the curriculum is to my liking, but "not pressure testing" isn't really an issue that the sayoc or atienza groups have to my knowledge.
    Agreed, others have posted that they limit their "sparring" or "knife training" to 1 on 1 or 1 vs multiple opponents, both Sayoc and Atitenza Kali train for situations beyond that.

    The Sayoc Sama Sama DVD's will show 2 on 2 as well as melee's where we'll have 50 people on the field and it's every man for himself.

    How many other folks even bother to train for 2 or 3 or 4 on 1?

    If all you train for is to be the Receiver and the one defending what happens if it's you and 2 others vs. a guy with a gun?

    In the past guys who were good at striking would say "I'd never let a grappler get close enough to take me down" but how often would they train against a guy who knew how to grapple?

    Conversely, a good grappler decides "I'm just going to close on him and take him down" but how often does that grappler train against a good striker?

    As the evolution of MMA over the last 10+ years has shown, you can be better at one or the other but you've got to train both striking and grappling.

    The same applies to edged weapons, if you don't train the Feeder side of bladework then you'll always be limited to training against what you think a trained knife guy will do. You are in effect, training against your own limitations.

    Sayoc does the same with projectiles, even a cursory view of recent unrest and riots will show that once things get out of control people start throwing things.

    Sayoc trains students to be able to use projectiles but just as importantly to recognize (precursors) when others are using projectiles. If you're boxing it may be the left hook that you never saw coming that knocks you out, on the street it may be the brick that someone throws that knocks you out.

    Yet it is the critics who will claim that Sayoc training isn't realistic because it doesn't fit in to their limitations.

    Why is it that those who've never trained with Sayoc are often the most critical?

    When respected folks as diverse as Manong Guro Dan Inosanto and former NSW operator Kyle Defoor have gone on record as saying that Sayoc is at the leading edge of blade work and combatives training?

    Glimpses of Sayoc training are available on both youtube and on DVD's, available to anybody willing to take the time to view them.

    What to the critics offer besides misinformed pot shots sent from their keyboards?
  5. Team Python is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Indio, Ca.
    Posts
    315

    Posted On:
    3/07/2011 2:13pm


     Style: BJJ, Libre, Street Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sayoc_Guro View Post
    Agreed, others have posted that they limit their "sparring" or "knife training" to 1 on 1 or 1 vs multiple opponents, both Sayoc and Atitenza Kali train for situations beyond that.

    The Sayoc Sama Sama DVD's will show 2 on 2 as well as melee's where we'll have 50 people on the field and it's every man for himself.

    How many other folks even bother to train for 2 or 3 or 4 on 1?

    If all you train for is to be the Receiver and the one defending what happens if it's you and 2 others vs. a guy with a gun?

    In the past guys who were good at striking would say "I'd never let a grappler get close enough to take me down" but how often would they train against a guy who knew how to grapple?

    Conversely, a good grappler decides "I'm just going to close on him and take him down" but how often does that grappler train against a good striker?

    As the evolution of MMA over the last 10+ years has shown, you can be better at one or the other but you've got to train both striking and grappling.

    The same applies to edged weapons, if you don't train the Feeder side of bladework then you'll always be limited to training against what you think a trained knife guy will do. You are in effect, training against your own limitations.

    Sayoc does the same with projectiles, even a cursory view of recent unrest and riots will show that once things get out of control people start throwing things.

    Sayoc trains students to be able to use projectiles but just as importantly to recognize (precursors) when others are using projectiles. If you're boxing it may be the left hook that you never saw coming that knocks you out, on the street it may be the brick that someone throws that knocks you out.

    Yet it is the critics who will claim that Sayoc training isn't realistic because it doesn't fit in to their limitations.

    Why is it that those who've never trained with Sayoc are often the most critical?

    When respected folks as diverse as Manong Guro Dan Inosanto and former NSW operator Kyle Defoor have gone on record as saying that Sayoc is at the leading edge of blade work and combatives training?

    Glimpses of Sayoc training are available on both youtube and on DVD's, available to anybody willing to take the time to view them.

    What to the critics offer besides misinformed pot shots sent from their keyboards?

    Nope just as I thought no Sayoc Kali sparring sessions on YouTube....just videos of some fat white dude who loses his breath after doing a few measly drills. Wow I am impressed.....
  6. bluedevilboy76 is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    cali
    Posts
    27

    Posted On:
    3/07/2011 6:29pm


     Style: kali

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Youtube is not a substitute for real training. Anyone who thinks that it can be is really out of touch with reality. There are lots of opportunities to train in Sayoc, even on the west coast. Anyone interested in learning more about what we do should contact an instructor in their area. Guro Brian Calaustro is running a seminar at the end of the month in San Diego, and there are several regular classes held all over southern California.
  7. spamurai13 is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    123

    Posted On:
    3/07/2011 8:19pm


     Style: Southern Kung Fu, BJJ, AK

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Team Python View Post
    Nope just as I thought no Sayoc Kali sparring sessions on YouTube....just videos of some fat white dude who loses his breath after doing a few measly drills. Wow I am impressed.....
    Um I have to disagree, if you refer to my post #19 on either page 2 or 3 of this thread, you'll see a couple of Atienza sparring sessions with aluminum trainers and a Sayoc sparring session (albeit an atypical one.)

    As for the rigs. Yes they are expensive if you choose to buy them from the website. My rig costs much less than that. The utility belt was $9 dollars. You can easily buy cheaper aluminum trainers and either make or buy cheap sheaths. While buying the equipment does benefit the organization, it does not exclude you from training in the system.

    I would also like to comment that the rigs are no different than spending $200 on a gi or $60 on board shorts or $45 for gloves. It is equipment for training and there are a range of prices for these items.
  8. Sayoc_Guro is offline

    Featherweight

    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    14

    Posted On:
    3/08/2011 7:18am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Sayoc Kali

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by bluedevilboy76 View Post
    Youtube is not a substitute for real training. Anyone who thinks that it can be is really out of touch with reality. There are lots of opportunities to train in Sayoc, even on the west coast. Anyone interested in learning more about what we do should contact an instructor in their area. Guro Brian Calaustro is running a seminar at the end of the month in San Diego, and there are several regular classes held all over southern California.
    Thanks for posting that but I doubt that will change the minds of those with pre-conceived notions of what Sayoc is or isn't despite any lack of firsthand experience.

    For those that may be interested in actually training with a Sayoc Instructor a list of schools can be found here: http://sayoc.com/?page_id=1635

    Here is a list of upcoming seminars: http://sayoc.com/?category_name=seminars
  9. Sayoc_Guro is offline

    Featherweight

    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    14

    Posted On:
    3/08/2011 7:37am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Sayoc Kali

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by spamurai13 View Post
    Um I have to disagree, if you refer to my post #19 on either page 2 or 3 of this thread, you'll see a couple of Atienza sparring sessions with aluminum trainers and a Sayoc sparring session (albeit an atypical one.)

    As for the rigs. Yes they are expensive if you choose to buy them from the website. My rig costs much less than that. The utility belt was $9 dollars. You can easily buy cheaper aluminum trainers and either make or buy cheap sheaths. While buying the equipment does benefit the organization, it does not exclude you from training in the system.

    I would also like to comment that the rigs are no different than spending $200 on a gi or $60 on board shorts or $45 for gloves. It is equipment for training and there are a range of prices for these items.
    Agreed, cost is relative. I had to buy a gi for my Judo classes in college, if I remember correctly it was $45 for a made in Pakistan all cotton gi that was always too hot and held water like a sponge.

    Like most FMA guys I've gone through hundreds of dollars in rattan sticks over the years.

    I've taken shooting classes that are $200 a day for training plus the cost of ammo. This doesn't include all the ancillary equipment such as the gun, magazines, mag pouches, eye and ear protection or associated travel costs. It doesn't take much for a 3 day class to rapidly turn in to a $1,000+ training event.

    For someone to dismiss a system out of hand because they've already made up their mind about what they're willing to spend on training equipment just shows how they've allowed their limitations to dictate their training and I don't think that those opinions have much relevance.

    Sayoc has had thousands of students over the years and not all of them were rich or had thousands of dollars to spend on training. What they did have was a willingness to learn, those that have that mindset will find a way to get the equipment.

    As stated several times before, the equipment is their to support the training. Go to any MMA gym and you'll see heavy bags and mats, gloves and pads. All that equipment is to there to make it easier for the students to train. All that equipment costs money, just as a training rig costs money.
  10. selfcritical is offline

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    austin, tx
    Posts
    2,428

    Posted On:
    3/08/2011 12:35pm


     Style: Pekiti, ARMA, other stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Team Python View Post
    Nope just as I thought no Sayoc Kali sparring sessions on YouTube....just videos of some fat white dude who loses his breath after doing a few measly drills. Wow I am impressed.....
    Umm, there's sparring video earlier in this thread. The one you're posting in right now. The no gear stick sparring, remember?
Page 7 of 10 FirstFirst ... 34567 8910 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Powered by vBulletin™© contact@vbulletin.com vBulletin Solutions, Inc. 2011 All rights reserved.