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  1. Team Python is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/02/2011 3:15pm


     Style: BJJ, Libre, Street Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude View Post
    Wait, the rig ITSELF cost +$300, or the rig plus the pile of aluminum trainers you fill it with? Considering how much good aluminum trainers cost, the metal alone is going to be a few hundred bucks at least.
    It is $295 for a basic starter rig......then they have a LEG STARTER RIG that is another $395......**** how many RIGS they need........Hey but if you want to keep your full instructor certification it will only cost you a meesly $5,000 a year....that is a deal of a life time
  2. Sayoc_Guro is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/03/2011 6:11am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Sayoc Kali

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by tim_stl View Post
    i'm confused. is the training rig a replica of a daily carry rig that sayoc practitioners use? following the advice in the video, it seems more applicable to buy or make a replica of the knife or knives you carry regularly, and carry them in the way that you do. if i carry a folder in my right hip pocket, wouldn't it make the more sense to get a training folder and practice drawing it from my pocket, rather than drawing a fixed blade from a rig?

    tim
    If all you base your training on what you carry than it would seem logical to simply carry trainers that mimic that.

    However, how do you train against someone who carries something differently?

    How would you ever recognize that someone reaching behind their back may be deploying a 7" fixed blade?

    How do you train against that if the only thing you and your training partners work with is 3" folders?

    The Training Rig is exactly that, it gives the student options and awareness as to where they or the opponents may carry blades.

    There is a good description with pictures here: http://sayoc.com/adobe/Rig.pdf
  3. Sayoc_Guro is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/03/2011 6:20am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Sayoc Kali

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Team Python View Post
    Exactly......how many people you know carry a fixed blade or two or three over a folder. The RIG is a ridiculous idea and they MAKE these guys buy them for training and they cost over three hundred bucks...
    I know many, and not everyone who trains is limited to folders. Sayoc has trained LE and Mil folks who can open carry fixed blades on their kit. Not everyone lives in places like California or New York where knife laws are prohibitive. Just because you don't know anybody doesn't make it invalid.

    Your confusing your assumptions about Sayoc with reality, Sayoc has never forced anyone to buy any of these rigs. Can anyone point to a single instance where a student was turned away for not purchasing a rig? The Sayoc Training Rig is a tool to help students, Tuhon Tom does an excellent job of explaining the "why" in the previously quoted video clip.

    To say that someone would never get in to a "real" fight with a Training Rig would be like saying no BJJ player would ever get in to a street fight wearing his Gi or no boxer would ever get in to a fight with his hands wrapped and gloves on.
  4. Sun_Helmets is offline

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    Feb 2011
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    Posted On:
    3/03/2011 8:36am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Kali

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude View Post
    & my instructor Ray is in this vid (he's one of the guys doing two-man drills, the other guy's Reggie Pieters*RIP*)

    & there's some Ron Balicki in there too, obviously
    Ron Balicki has also attended Sayoc seminars.

    I saw those silat videos back in the early 90's. We have cimande and various silat instructors who teach Sayoc as well.

    However, if you took Team Python's criticisms as valid then you must apply it to your own videos. No one shows everything in their dvds or promo clips.

    Lastly, cost for the aluminum trainers included.
    Last edited by Sun_Helmets; 3/03/2011 9:08am at .
  5. Sun_Helmets is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/03/2011 8:52am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Kali

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by tim_stl View Post
    wouldn't it make the more sense to get a training folder and practice drawing it from my pocket, rather than drawing a fixed blade from a rig?

    tim
    As others have pointed out, Sayoc does not limit the carry possibilities with the training rig. It is the opposite: the training rig allows individuals who can carry fixed blades (wilderness survival instructors, military, etc.) to train with them.

    We have students who carry fixed knives for work all the time, that's why they train Sayoc. They are given the benefit of the doubt that they will end up finding where the best carry options are by actually training those carry options. Sayoc does not tell them where the best positions are for that individual (ie: carry only a folder, carry only one blade) - we have too many students who have very specific needs.

    What you state is possible, but if you look outside of Sayoc, are you honestly finding students who rig up their daily carry? And if they do so on an individual basis, how much more advanced would they be if they had a whole organization consisting of professionals who carry all the time to bounce off their input?

    You can add a training folder if that's your carry method.
    Last edited by Sun_Helmets; 3/03/2011 8:56am at .
  6. Sun_Helmets is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/03/2011 9:02am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Kali

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Team Python View Post
    Exactly......how many people you know carry a fixed blade or two or three over a folder. The RIG is a ridiculous idea and they MAKE these guys buy them for training and they cost over three hundred bucks...
    One of those examples where the poster exposes how limited their experience in knife "reality" is.

    The training rig is so ridiculous that hundreds of thousands of military and security personnel can easily translate how it would apply on their kit.
  7. Sun_Helmets is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/03/2011 9:14am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Kali

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sayoc_Guro View Post
    I know many, and not everyone who trains is limited to folders. Sayoc has trained LE and Mil folks who can open carry fixed blades on their kit. Not everyone lives in places like California or New York where knife laws are prohibitive. Just because you don't know anybody doesn't make it invalid.
    Exactly.

    Military and security personnel carry fixed blades all the time. So do wilderness instructors, campers, fishermen, etc.

    Maybe in the suburbs where knife "reality" is defined by dueling one on one in a padded room, knives already in their hands then the idea of a training rig sounds like a NASA space program.

    One can also see he criticizes the leg rig and projects some pre-imagined anxiety that everyone MUST buy both rigs. As you stated no one is required to buy any.

    Plus $300 is an easy call for trainers that can last a lifetime.
    Last edited by Sun_Helmets; 3/03/2011 9:26am at .
  8. bluedevilboy76 is offline

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    cali
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    Posted On:
    3/03/2011 10:12am


     Style: kali

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Team Python View Post
    What make sparring a sport? What is sparring with a purpose and what is this beyond sparring you mention?
    Sparring= sport when the goal is not to kill each other. Typically, people who walk away from a sparring session are still friendly and have learned something from the exchange. For those who participate in combative sports, sparring is used to ready them for the fight. Especially in the latter case, there is no way that sparring could be more than sport (fighters don't enter a sparring session with the thought that they are going to kill or be killed). There are definitely a lot of people out there who could speak about fight prep more than I could (peaking at the right time vs. overtraining), as my experience in that realm is very limited. The other factor is that typically people are not going 100% when they spar. There is usually a limiter in place, usually on speed, power, or both.

    Sparring with a purpose: In Sayoc and Atienza Kali, knife "sparring" typically doesn't begin in a dueling context. We usually work from scenarios, but that's all kind of besides the point. Here's an analogy:

    In BJJ, people often roll with an agenda in mind: "I want to work on how to get an arm-bar from the guard" or "lock flow to kimura" or "work to the rear naked choke." In my very limited BJJ experience, whenever I roll with people who are more experienced than I am, they are typically working in this way.

    In Sayoc Kali and Atienza Kali, my "sparring" has usually been similar to this: I try to work certain techniques, identify reference points and anchor points, and problem solve. Even when I'm not working something specific, the focus is always on acknowledging the hit or learning from the exchange rather than an egotistical "I'm better than you" approach that's all about winning some imaginary point contest.

    Beyond sparring= Everything beyond the "friendly" exchange. Back to the BJJ analogy, this would mean grappling beyond the tap. In a firearms instruction context, this would mean shooting beyond the kill house, reactive targets, and simunitions training.
  9. bluedevilboy76 is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/03/2011 10:23am


     Style: kali

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sun_Helmets View Post
    Plus $300 is an easy call for trainers that can last a lifetime.
    This. I have trainers I still use that I bought back in 2001. The handles are dirty and the blades have been deburred more than a few times, but they're still used all the time.

    Also: no one ever MADE me buy anything as a prerequisite to training. I imagine that I'm like most weapons guys: when I see something that will make my kit better, I buy it happily.
  10. tim_stl is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/03/2011 11:18am


     Style: fma

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by tim_stl View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sun_Helmet View Post
    Cost is one way Sayoc filters out the guys who wave the SIMPLICITY flag as if they won a race.

    i don't understand. could you elaborate?


    tim
    assuming you're sun_helmet and couldn't get back into your old account, can i get this question answered?


    tim
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