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  1. entropy is offline

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    Feb 2011
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    2

    Posted On:
    2/03/2011 11:20pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Atienza Kali

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    As to the questions in reference to similarities or differences between teaching methodology; student progression and information transfer, I will leave this to any of our instructors who have training in PTK and now currently train in Atienza. I will speak only for Atienza as I have not trained in either the PTK or Sayoc systems.

    As far as money is concerned:

    Superficially…anyone who understands the psychology of how people buy things and spend money would know right away that the pricing structure in the Atienza organization is not designed to bring in loads of cash or loads of people. For instance, Mercedes-Benz sells vehicles ranging in price on the low end (30+k) to their higher end (113+k). Knowing that people generally won’t purchase the high end or the low end stuff, but hang out primarily in the middle somewhere…hence the majority of their makes/models are between those figures…and this is where they make the bulk of their money on selling vehicles. Sure people do come in and buy the low or high end stuff, but most people will be in the middle somewhere. Atienza is on the high end of the FMA pricing structure as compared with other FMA organizations. The whole argument of high priced Filipino Martial Art organizations only being in it for the money is a fallacious argument not based on logic or reason.

    The evolutions (drills) in Atienza come from the fight…not the other way around. We don’t make the evolution and learn to fight from it. Therefore, all the higher ups and even beginners who start training with our standard curriculum can start applying what they learn from the evolutions and their variations directly into combative exchanges.

    In the end, this is all just talk and words…just like anything that anyone posts on any of these forums. Best thing to do is go and train in PTK for several years. Learn and ask as many questions as you can…and if there is still a burning question in the back of your mind about Atienza differences; pricing; origins…etc., then come in and train with us.

    As always, our doors are open…we are actually having a fight night at the end of February here in Queens, NY if you would like to come in and move around with us!

    Regards,

    Joshua Votaw
    www.TrainUrbanJungle.com
  2. Team Python is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/04/2011 2:47am


     Style: BJJ, Libre, Street Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    What I mean by sparring is using what is taught against a live resistant opponent. For instance a tapping drill. Can you use it against a partner that is really trying to stab you with a training blade but is not restricted to any set moves? Meaning he can come at you anyway he wants using feints or fakes and side to side movement. If any technique that is taught that can not be used against a live resistant opponent (Sparring) during training then it probably won't work in a real life situation.



    Now drilling is important by all means but if that is all you do and no sparring is involved then I have to wonder if what they are teaching is really going to work. If someone is going to charge all kinds of money then they better offer techniques that have been tested again and again against real resistance.



    I see lot of videos on Youtube where an instructor is cutting a guy 10 times after the initial attack is made. Well it sure looks cool but that is not really what is going to happen. No person is going to let you cut him 10 times unless he is dead already. If I confront a guy with a knife and I have my knife I am not just going to attack him. I am going to move around and try to create an opening for some type of attack. I have to use speed to get in and get out. Actually it is almost like boxing with a knife sort of speak.



    Now there are two types of attacks you will face. One is what I call a Committed Single Attack which can be done by surprise or with you knowing it is coming. In either situation the attacker does not know you are armed or that you have any fighting skills so he simply just comes up to you and throws a haymaker or thrusts at you with a knife with everything he’s got. This is an easy attack to counter because it is just one movement and he has committed everything to it.



    The other attack is what I call Cautious Attack….he knows you have some skills or he knows you have a weapon. So he is not just going to simply attack you which would leave him open for a counter. Instead he will use in and out or side to side movement along with feints or fakes to create an opening for his many attacks. Basically you know each others intentions and it becomes a some what of a dueling situation.



    Most martial arts train for the Committed Single Attacks but fail to deal with the Cautious Attacks. Sparring deals best with the latter and you have to train for both to be well prepared.
    Last edited by Team Python; 2/04/2011 2:52am at .
  3. spamurai13 is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/04/2011 7:24am


     Style: Southern Kung Fu, BJJ, AK

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Team Python View Post
    What I mean by sparring is using what is taught against a live resistant opponent. For instance a tapping drill. Can you use it against a partner that is really trying to stab you with a training blade but is not restricted to any set moves? Meaning he can come at you anyway he wants using feints or fakes and side to side movement. If any technique that is taught that can not be used against a live resistant opponent (Sparring) during training then it probably won't work in a real life situation.
    -Ok, I'll respond to the initial topic of this dialogue. I personally, nor have my training groups done specific knife training that involves specifically two people with knives and having them go "ready, set, spar."

    We do free flowing drills where the feeder will feed a few predetermined moves, then the feeder will do whatever move he wants and the receiver will either have to successfully tap and eventually respond in order to stop the encounter via lock or via the receiver drawing his blade.

    We also do another exercise where a room of people are walking amongst each other. a designated person is the receiver and a designated person is the feeder. however, the receiver does not know who the feeder but has to read the body language of the rest of the people in the room. The feeder will then attack at any time and the feeder will have to defend and then neutralize the attack. During either of these exercises, the feeder can feint, fake move in any direction as well as use his non weapon hand to disrupt the receiver as this as much training for the feeder as the receiver.

    -in terms of aliveness, i think the videos I provided earlier demonstrate the type of intensity and resistance that qualifies for alive training.

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Python View Post
    Now drilling is important by all means but if that is all you do and no sparring is involved then I have to wonder if what they are teaching is really going to work. If someone is going to charge all kinds of money then they better offer techniques that have been tested again and again against real resistance.
    -agreed. i feel that the training I get for my money is well worth it

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Python View Post
    I see lot of videos on Youtube where an instructor is cutting a guy 10 times after the initial attack is made. Well it sure looks cool but that is not really what is going to happen. No person is going to let you cut him 10 times unless he is dead already. If I confront a guy with a knife and I have my knife I am not just going to attack him. I am going to move around and try to create an opening for some type of attack. I have to use speed to get in and get out. Actually it is almost like boxing with a knife sort of speak.
    -agreed. we train to target vital areas and use non lethal cuts only to clear the way to the vital target. while our tapping sequences can be complex. each component involves targeting the same vital targets from different approaches.

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Python View Post
    Now there are two types of attacks you will face. One is what I call a Committed Single Attack which can be done by surprise or with you knowing it is coming. In either situation the attacker does not know you are armed or that you have any fighting skills so he simply just comes up to you and throws a haymaker or thrusts at you with a knife with everything he’s got. This is an easy attack to counter because it is just one movement and he has committed everything to it.
    -ok. we train under both conditions. the second drill I mentioned mimicks more of the committed single attack

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Python View Post
    The other attack is what I call Cautious Attack….he knows you have some skills or he knows you have a weapon. So he is not just going to simply attack you which would leave him open for a counter. Instead he will use in and out or side to side movement along with feints or fakes to create an opening for his many attacks. Basically you know each others intentions and it becomes a some what of a dueling situation.
    - our mass attack drills describe your cautious attack description. these drills start off with a group of armed (or at least using fists) opponents intended to attack a target. the first person may deliver the committed single attack, however, assuming the receiver has dispatched him, the rest of the group adopts a cautious mindset as they have now seen that the receiver is skilled. the challenge then fall on the receiver to use his weapon/surroundings to not get overtaken by the group.

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Python View Post
    Most martial arts train for the Committed Single Attacks but fail to deal with the Cautious Attacks. Sparring deals best with the latter and you have to train for both to be well prepared.
    -agreed. as you can see our stick/sword training is as alive as it gets. our knife training in my opinion very easily trains the 2 types of attack that you describe. They are veiled within our drills so that novices can get accustomed to flow, however, even at the novice level, intensity and unpredictability are quickly incorporated to force the feeder and receiver to train more towards "teh streets."
    Last edited by spamurai13; 2/04/2011 7:28am at . Reason: wrote within quotes
  4. tim_stl is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/04/2011 11:19am


     Style: fma

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Re: Sayoc Kali, Pekiti Tirsia Kali and Atienza Kali

    Quote Originally Posted by Sun_Helmet View Post
    Cost is one way Sayoc filters out the guys who wave the SIMPLICITY flag as if they won a race.
    i don't understand. could you elaborate?


    tim
  5. Team Python is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/04/2011 12:02pm


     Style: BJJ, Libre, Street Boxing

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Re: Sayoc Kali, Pekiti Tirsia Kali and Atienza Kali

    Quote Originally Posted by tim_stl View Post
    i don't understand. could you elaborate?


    tim
    He is trying to justify why they pay a lot of money.
  6. Sun_Helmets is offline

    Featherweight

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    Feb 2011
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    Posted On:
    2/06/2011 11:08pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Kali

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Team Python View Post
    So to clear things up.....do you or do you not include knife sparring in your training?
    Yes, but only when we want to equate realistic knife training with paintball between two people in a vacant room. There's so many realistic training modifiers that I listed in my prior posts, but I can see what level of knife training you've had so I'll make it easy for you:

    Yes we do your kind of knife sparring... My suggestion to you is that you seek higher more respected knife people and ask about Sayoc. Ask about who we have trained, who we have proven our skills to etc. You'll thank me later because what you write on the web is forever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Python View Post
    Do you or do you not spend lots of money on your training and seminars?....just curious to see if the guys I talked to were lying to me or were they telling me the truth.
    It is a weapon based system, not a daycare dojo. We charge adults and they can decide for themselves. So unless you get bullets for free, or make home made shanks then this system is not for you.

    We're not forcing anyone to join, people pay ten times more to play golf :) You revived this thread- so really the cost and the worth only concerns those who wish to learn from some of the best instructors in the planet.

    As for your description of template training, it's funny that you have an avatar of someone shooting, are they aiming at a target? Well that's template work. Knifework is not boxing and if you think your knife sparring is boxing then you're incorrect. You are point fighting, not boxing. Bxing footwork has some similarities but only sport minded people train incomplete knife footwork. Some boxing movements will cause self inflicted wounds and against elite level edged weapons people it will become apparent.

    Just like range time, it is but a peek into the vast world of a weapon based system. But imagine if you were taught firearms without ever doing any target shooting as a foundation?

    Lastly, you may feel self entitled to receive the cheapest training possible, but that will bite you back later on once you learn more about the precautions and responsibility it takes to teach a weapon based system beyond the confines of sports mentality posing as reality.

    We have taught literally hundreds of individuals who rely on their Sayoc training for over thirty years to keep them safe and their families safe. We do not take this lightly.

    Our track record are servicemen, high end MMA athletes, Law enforcement etc.... who have used our formulas successfully. Plus the thousands of students, instructors, and numerous styles we've cross trained.

    So when a novice at this poses as an authority and attempts to defame our hard work, we laugh because Sayoc was involved in full contact stick and live blade training before padded or metal trainers were developed. Who do you think helped test and promote those training tools? The generation of knife and FMA of which Sayoc was integral to brought this art to this country.

    Funny we don't remember you the decades we were promoting and proving the effectiveness of FMA for little or no money.

    Why not promote the art effectively instead? Maybe after thirty years, you might become successful at it and you'll at least have earned it in the eyes of those who have walked and left their footprints on the stones. After that you won't need to look at youtube to know more about those who helped build the mountain you stand on.
    Last edited by Sun_Helmets; 2/06/2011 11:20pm at .
  7. BayaniWarrior is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/06/2011 11:41pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hey everyone. I came across this thread and thought I'd contribute to it.

    I have been practicing the Filipino martial arts for the last 10 years or so and I have been blessed to have studied various systems throughout that time. Among them, I have studied Pekiti Tirsia Kali under Rommel Tortal as well as Atienza Kali under Tuhon Carl Atienza and Sayoc Kali under Guro Sean Brandt.

    I know there have been several discussions in the past regarding the similarities between Pekiti Tirsia, Atienza Kali, and Sayoc Kali. Let me just say that my experiences in all three systems have been very positive. I trained with Rommel Tortal for a month privately a few years ago while visiting relatives in Manila. He is an excellent teacher and a really nice guy as well. I trained under Guro Sean Brandt of Sayoc Kali as well. His skill as a fighter and teacher has been a great blessing to me. I began training under Tuhon Carl Atienza three years ago and at this point, he is my biggest influence in terms of not only how I fight and train, but he has also influenced the way I conduct myself in all aspects of my life, whether it be my family, finances, or through my own FMA group, Bayani Warrior.

    I feel that the best way to learn the similarities and differences among the three systems would be to go train in all three. It would be impractical for me to break down every little detail about the differences and similarities among all three systems. However, I'll do my best to highlight the main differences that immediately come to my mind.

    The main difference between the three systems that I noticed early in my training lie in the training methods. The first thing that stands out in my mind are the drills. The drills in PTK have a different feel and purpose to those I've found in Sayoc and Atienza Kali. In PTK, the drills I learned were very fluid, fast, and powerful. They definitely improved my athleticism, coordination, and power. However, while many members and teachers in Sayoc and Atienza Kali are incredibly athletic (check out www.trainurbanjungle.com and www.filipinocombatives.com), the drills in AK and Sayoc are more designed to install specific tactics and techniques subconsciously within the student. In addition, the drills in Atienza Kali specifically are designed to mirror an actual freeflow weapons exchange between opponents. The main difference I've also seen between the PTK and Sayoc/AK drills are that the Sayoc/AK drills typically have an ending, in which one of the two participants will die or end the drill from continuing, representing the end of the fight or exchange. I've found that the PTK drills rep the techniques in a repeated, fluid pattern over time, which the AK/Sayoc drills do not typically do.

    Another training method that is unique to AK and Sayoc are the Targeting Chains and Vital Templates. PTK does an excellent job of pointing out parts of the human anatomy, specifically during their blade work. However, I've found that Sayoc Kali and Atienza Kali train these targets in a much more concentrated way. There are dozens of vital templates and targeting chains found in AK and Sayoc, and each drill is designed to attack and exploit these targets immediately.

    The main thing that I notice about AK and Sayoc is the way they not only break down their drills, but also how they break down an actual combative exchange with weaponry. From my experience, sparring and training with Atienza Kali and Sayoc Kali have allowed me to almost view the fight from a third-person point of view...allowing me to analyze the fight in great detail and break it down logically. This has helped me not only in my fighting skills, but more importantly, in the way I analyze problems through my daily life. I can honestly say that this skill alone has been worth all of the time and money I have put towards my training in AK and Sayoc, and my fighting abilities have greatly improved since that time. The AK and Sayoc methodologies have taken all of my previous FMA training and made me much more skilled and confident in my fighting abilities. The training has brought out the best in me...not only as a fighter but also as a human being.

    Again, my advice would be to go and train in all three to experience the similarities and differences for yourself. Again, my experiences with all three systems have been very positive.

    Respectfully,
    Michael Pana
    Chief Instructor: Bayani Warrior Group (www.bayaniwarrior.com)
    Atienza Kali Apprentice Level 3
    Last edited by BayaniWarrior; 2/06/2011 11:47pm at .
  8. bluedevilboy76 is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/07/2011 8:55pm


     Style: kali

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    WRT Sparring

    If one trains with sparring as the end result, one ends up with a sport mentality. While sparring is a valuable element of combatives training, it can't be the "real thing." In Sayoc and Atienza Kali, my experience is that sparring is done with a purpose in mind. It's all part of the training evolution, not the end result we're trying to reach (there's nothing wrong with the sport mentality: I enjoy watching UFC as much as the next guy).

    Sparring without that purpose in mind doesn't develop any skills; it just becomes an attributes game, not a skill game. Something that claims to be combative though needs to move beyond sparring to something else.

    Sparring is not emphasized for people new to either system. Someone who's spent a few hundred dollars has probably attended a few seminars, which means they've probably got a lot of information and less opportunity to apply it. It also seems like that's in the ballpark for lots of quality training opportunities out there, whether it's in FMA, BJJ, or firearms.

    I have to second BayaniWarrior's experience: In Sayoc and Atienza Kali, the blade ends up being a tool that's used to teach; the application of the lesson learned goes beyond just the force-on-force encounter.
  9. selfcritical is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/28/2011 7:29pm


     Style: Pekiti, ARMA, other stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Best Post on the subject EVER
  10. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/01/2011 12:02am

    Join us... or die
     Style: StrikeyGrappling & WW2-fu

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Team Python View Post
    Is this a long way of saying you guys don't spar and you guys do pay up the ass for training?
    Damn! You beat me to it!

    (I'm just glad all that Sayoc & Atienza Kali stuff is available for free download)
    Last edited by Jim_Jude; 3/01/2011 12:20am at .
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
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