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  1. jnperrings is offline

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    Dec 2007
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    Posted On:
    2/03/2011 3:23am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Kali

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You wrote with such authority when you said "You won't do a minute of sparring...Don't waste your money."

    But with your statement:

    just curious to see if the guys I talked to were lying to me or were they telling me the truth.
    it seems your opinion is based only on hearsay.
    Last edited by jnperrings; 2/03/2011 3:24am at . Reason: formatting
  2. entropy is offline

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    Feb 2011
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    2

    Posted On:
    2/03/2011 9:33am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Atienza Kali

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    As to the questions in reference to similarities or differences between teaching methodology; student progression and information transfer, I will leave this to any of our instructors who have training in PTK and now currently train in Atienza. I will speak only for Atienza as I have not trained in either the PTK or Sayoc systems.

    As far as money is concerned:

    Superficially…anyone who understands the psychology of how people buy things and spend money would know right away that the pricing structure in the Atienza organization is not designed to bring in loads of cash or loads of people. For instance, Mercedes-Benz sells vehicles ranging in price on the low end (30+k) to their higher end (113+k). Knowing that people generally won’t purchase the high end or the low end stuff, but hang out primarily in the middle somewhere…hence the majority of their makes/models are between those figures…and this is where they make the bulk of their money on selling vehicles. Sure people do come in and buy the low or high end stuff, but most people will be in the middle somewhere. Atienza is on the high end of the FMA pricing structure as compared with other FMA organizations. The whole argument of high priced Filipino Martial Art organizations only being in it for the money is a fallacious argument not based on logic or reason.

    If we put some perspective on the idea of money relating to training:

    Receiver (student in this case) – Driving Question: What is my life or the life of my loved one worth?? Of course the student needs to believe that the instructor has information which could save their life, or the life of a loved one…otherwise, why train with that instructor. There are many questions and answers that can flow from this line of logic, including taking a completely different line altogether from the above question.

    Feeder (Instructor in this case) – Driving Question: What was sacrificed to get me this information? Yes people have sweat, cried, bled, and died for this information throughout the years…what does it say if I attach a cheap price to the information? Perhaps there should be a sense of earning for the information…

    The evolutions (drills) in Atienza come from the fight…not the other way around. We don’t make the evolution and learn to fight from it. Therefore, all the higher ups and even beginners who start training with our standard curriculum can start applying what they learn from the evolutions and their variations directly into combative exchanges.

    In the end, this is all just talk and words…just like anything that anyone posts on any of these forums. Best thing to do is go and train in PTK for several years. Learn and ask as many questions as you can…and if there is still a burning question in the back of your mind about Atienza differences; pricing; origins…etc., then come in and train with us.

    As always, our doors are open…we are actually having a fight night at the end of February here in Queens, NY if you would like to come in and move around with us!

    Regards,

    Joshua Votaw
    www.TrainUrbanJungle.com
  3. Team Python is offline

    Registered Member

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    Mar 2010
    Location
    Indio, Ca.
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    315

    Posted On:
    2/03/2011 12:07pm


     Style: BJJ, Libre, Street Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Is not most opinions based on a little hearsay. I gave my opinion based off of what I heard and from what I have read on other forums. I have never joined this group because from the get go it seemed too costly and I know a scam when I see one (oops there goes my opinion again).

    Also If I was to get the guys that I talked with and have them join this forum and have them give their opinions on this system will this change someones mind. No...people will just say "Well that is just your opinion." So this won't solve anything.

    So if what I said is not enough for you then I suggest you go join Sayoc Kali and after a year come back and let me know if I was wrong if it means that much to you.
    Last edited by Team Python; 2/03/2011 12:18pm at .
  4. Sun_Helmet is offline

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    Feb 2005
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    Posted On:
    2/03/2011 5:07pm


     Style: Sayoc Kali

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Team Python View Post
    Is not most opinions based on a little hearsay.
    There’s such as thing as an educated opinion. You were passing on info as if you were actually there. That diminishes the credibility no?
    Again, if you just switch your own arguments and apply it to your own past, wouldn't you actually want to hear from someone who was closer to the source?

    Wouldn't you want to investigate farther than one layer? Beyond the internet and some pals?


    Quote Originally Posted by Team Python View Post
    I gave my opinion based off of what I heard and from what I have read on other forums. I have never joined this group because from the get go it seemed too costly and I know a scam when I see one (oops there goes my opinion again).
    OOPs is right.

    Do you really know a “scam” when you see one? Or do you value your training differently than others? Perhaps you should at least attend a class and get an idea of what you are talking about.

    What happened in the FMA world is that many students have this low perceived value of their training because they treat their training as less than other arts. Less than a car mechanic, piano teacher or a dentist. Is this their LIFE's value?

    But dare any FMA instructor (that includes all the Manongs and old men that were paid a pittance for passing on their blood art) who values their worth and prices it as such, it becomes a “scam”.

    Cost is one way Sayoc filters out the guys who wave the SIMPLICITY flag as if they won a race.

    Many of our students find the Sayoc cost as more than worthwhile, because they bypassed all the heresay and didn't waste their time.

    Think about it, think about what you are posting beyond some self-serving argument about how much money you are paying for FMA training.

    Are you really paying your instructors enough? Look at their lives, look at what they were willing to pass on to you.

    Someone died so that you can learn that one thing they are giving you. Someone you don't even know or have never met.

    Who is scamming whom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Python View Post
    Also If I was to get the guys that I talked with and have them join this forum and have them give their opinions on this system will this change someones mind. No...people will just say "Well that is just your opinion." So this won't solve anything.
    You're right, if what you write "won't solve anything" that means you instigated a problem that was never there in the first place by reviving a long dead thread.

    KInda shows a lack of seasoning does it not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Python View Post
    So if what I said is not enough for you then I suggest you go join Sayoc Kali and after a year come back and let me know if I was wrong if it means that much to you.

    You can listen to TEAM PYTHON of listen to this person's opinion:

    "This week I got to be a student for a change. All I had to do was show up and do as instructed.

    I learned more than I have in any one course, no matter the subject. You'll see the benefits right away. For those that come to TS classes you'll see me instituting some of Sayoc's principals and mixing it with our firearms procedures.

    If your LE or Mil, just go. Please quit whatever silliness your doing combatives wise and save your time and money. BTW, I've been through them all.
    "
    Last edited by Sun_Helmet; 2/03/2011 5:11pm at .
  5. Sun_Helmet is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/03/2011 5:29pm


     Style: Sayoc Kali

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Pat Pintados View Post
    If you are not sparring you are not training in my books.
    Can you describe what you mean by "sparring?" and can you elaborate on what you mean by "training"? What does that entail in your mind?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pat Pintados View Post
    You see in most skilled knife sparring very little functional tapping, as opposed to long range stop cutting or bait/feint attacks.
    That sounds like stick sparring adapted to edged weapons.

    Keyword is "Functional" tapping. At close range, seeing cannot be relied upon.

    SENSITIVITY is the most functional attribute you have.

    Many Filipino arts like Sayoc learn ALL the ranges and specialize depending on the attributes of the heads of their system.

    Don't discount what you haven't seen in true application.

    There is no long range fancy footwork in a prison cell, staircase, frozen sidewalk or subway car. There is no feinting or baiting if your eyes just got pepper sprayed or had something obstructing your vision. There is limited baiting in a mass attack scenario. How will feinting work in a low light condition?

    Are you describing a duel scenario where one guy faces off another at a flat dry surface?

    If you spar, do you spar in a wooded area with natural elements as obstacles? How about a dark alley? How about inside a vehicle - do you know how to "bait and feint" behind your steering wheel and someone is trying to kill you from outside the door? Do you add projectiles in your sparring?

    Do you spar with your wife or child IN the scenario? Because real life will spar you that way.

    Do you spar disoriented, do you spar with one arm or leg handicapped?

    Do you even know for a fact how fast you can deploy your live blade in a real time, adrenalin charged scenario?

    Do you spar by testing your emotional and logical assessment of situations?

    Do you spar by knowing what happens when you use your blade in real life?
    Do you continue your sparring duels past the "tag you're it" stage?
    Meaning do you spar withOUT adding the consequences of ingraining duel scenarios without support?

    Do you spar with how your life will change?

    Why not?

    Just look at the news... that is the real world, these things can happen in smaller or larger degrees.

    I recall having a similar discussion with another expert a few years back. They said that the streets would never be as how we viewed it, especially not in the states. The next day Katrina happened.

    If you are sparring like Errol Flynn or playing tag in a padded gym floor:

    How many wasted hours have you spent being the best knife tagger in the neighborhood?

    How many TRAINING SCARS have you ingrained into your muscle memory?


    Is that REALLY sparring?

    BTW PINTADO, you may do this- who knows? I just wanted to define what hill the knife spar champs are planting their flag on.

    If you want to be amused further - search around for all the naysayers about projectile training. Kinda seems silly now.
    Last edited by Sun_Helmet; 2/03/2011 5:50pm at .
  6. Sun_Helmet is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/03/2011 5:44pm


     Style: Sayoc Kali

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Team Python View Post
    ...just curious to see if the guys I talked to were lying to me or were they telling me the truth.
    You already discounted the validity of forum opinions yourself, then turn around and ask for a forum opinion.

    My best advice is to seek out a seminar and attend it.

    Earn that educated opinion.

    It is each individual that must ultimately be his own protector. - Thomas Hobbes.
  7. Team Python is offline

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    Indio, Ca.
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    Posted On:
    2/03/2011 6:41pm


     Style: BJJ, Libre, Street Boxing

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Is this a long way of saying you guys don't spar and you guys do pay up the ass for training?
    Last edited by Team Python; 2/03/2011 7:25pm at .
  8. Team Python is offline

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    315

    Posted On:
    2/03/2011 6:43pm


     Style: BJJ, Libre, Street Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Nice.....I see you train realistically brother
  9. Team Python is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/03/2011 6:44pm


     Style: BJJ, Libre, Street Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Pat Pintados View Post
    If you are not sparring you are not training in my books.

    When flashy complicated close quarters knife tapping drills are practiced to excess, and have little practice/bearing in non-compliant situations, they are demonstration masturbation. I guess those drills make people think they are getting their money's worth and they are the baddest hombre in the barrio.

    I feel it's better to teach simple blocks of principles (angle X vs angle Y, zone out to this area to reach this target), and try to apply them under pressure when the situation arises in sparring. "Situational not systematic". I feel that way because show business goes out the window under the stress of real confrontation.

    You see in most skilled knife sparring very little functional tapping, as opposed to long range stop cutting or bait/feint attacks.
    Nice.....I see you train realistically brother
  10. spamurai13 is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/03/2011 10:29pm


     Style: Southern Kung Fu, BJJ, AK

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well I have to admit that while I have trained with the Atienzas and Sayocs, I have not per se squared off with someone to "spar" with knives. I suppose part of the reason is because their thought is that the knife is generally a weapon of stealth and that it tends to be used more for ambush or surprise attacks. therefore, when we have trained with the knives, it tends to be in the mass attack or ambush setting (as much of an ambush as possible). In short, if you are referring specifically to knife v.s. knife sparring, then I am not aware of any particular

    that being said, sparring in the broader sense certainly happens with sticks/sword trainers with varying levels of padding


    (sayocs)


    (atienzas)


    (atienzas)
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